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Peakoil.com :: View topic - The Landing model, data needed (help could also be useful)
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The Landing model, data needed (help could also be useful)
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Taskforce_Unity
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Posts: 487
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:05 am    Post subject: The Landing model, data needed (help could also be useful) Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Since there is a lot of debate over if other forms of energy can replace fossil fuels and in what rate i intend to make a landing model.

It will enhold these things in various variables (like peak in 2008 and 2015):

- Peak in Oil as the main factor

- The time we can replace oil with gas and coal based on peak of coal.

- Growth rates and staying at current consumption levels of energy substances

- EROEI decrease of fossil fuels

- Efficiency and conservation decrease of energy

- Predicted renewable growth, renewable growth needed to offset decline of fossil fuels (and possibly growth)

- Possibilities of Uranium and as some claim breeder or fusion (if they would work in the timespan according to some experts)

maybe options:

- hydrogen and biofuels

- An unkown energy source (renewable) for the future

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have any other thing to add, wish to help or can supply some data on things that you THINK that can work (with data) please add them to the thread.

If you want to help contact me at

koppelaar@webmail.co.za
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Taskforce_Unity
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Ow another thing

It will be based on Excel worksheets and maybe some SPSS database. Since that's all i am familiar with (i'm not that good in modelling)
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pup55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Cool.

Most all the data I use is from the BP Statistical Review, so no problem.

As for your forecasts, peak predictions and/or decline curves, easily generated from other threads in this section so no problem either.

Don't know about uranium.

But the question is, what will be your "response variable", in other words, once you put in the projections on energy usage, forecasts, rate of transfer between energy sources, EROEI, etc, etc, what will be the output?
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Taskforce_Unity
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Response variable will be the time and growth rate needed for alternative energies to be implented. From this you will be able to conclude what kind of landing is possible.
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julianj
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Good Idea Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

An interesting idea. I look forward to the results.
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pup55
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Okay. Got another question (friendly and supportive).

So your real "dependent variable" is "landing".

You will test various alternate energy growth rates (independent variable), over time (independent variable) given some assumptions about expected oil peak and other energy sources (independent variables) to see the effects on "landing" (dependent variable).

What's your measurement of "landing"?
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Taskforce_Unity
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Tricky question,

It will depend on the amount of conservation and efficiency possible i think.

Didn't figure everything out yet. I usually do that and get more think patterns when i am working on something like it.

I'd say a soft landing is one in which we can keep most of the luxuries we have now by conservation and efficiency, some negative growth and a small contraction of the population. It also depends on the country ofcourse were you live.
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pup55
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Ah, then "landing" might be defined in several ways: population loss, per-capita GDP, maybe even some measurement like life expectancy.

SPSS, in my experience (which was from back in the punch card days) should be good at this. Using the historical data for the independent variables, it will compute for you the equation for each of the above dependent variables. From that, simple to construct a spreadsheet with the forecast oil, coal and gas production, and using the equation that SPSS gives you, project the population, per capita GDP or whatever else you want. You put in different forecasts, and the spreadsheet gives you different estimates of all of the above dependent variables.

The tricky part will be the interperetation, of course.
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pup55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: data dump part 1 Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

col
1 year
2 oil production gb
3 global life expectancy yrs
4 population billions
5 global gdp trillion 1995 dollars
6 gas production bcm
7 coal prod tons
8 nuclear trillion watt=hrs
9 hydro milllion ton oil equivalent

Code:
1900   0.20   35.98   1.55               
1901   0.24   36.13   1.57               
1902   0.27   36.28   1.59               
1903   0.31   36.43   1.61               
1904   0.35   36.59   1.63               
1905   0.38   36.74   1.65               
1906   0.42   36.89   1.67               
1907   0.45   37.04   1.69               
1908   0.49   37.20   1.71               
1909   0.53   37.35   1.73               
1910   0.56   37.50   1.75               
1911   0.60   37.80   1.76               
1912   0.64   38.10   1.77               
1913   0.67   38.39   1.78               
1914   0.71   38.69   1.79               
1915   0.75   38.99   1.81               
1916   0.78   39.29   1.82               
1917   0.82   39.58   1.83               
1918   0.85   39.88   1.84               
1919   0.89   40.18   1.85               
1920   0.93   40.48   1.86               
1921   0.96   40.77   1.88               
1922   1.00   41.07   1.90               
1923   1.00   41.37   1.92               
1924   1.29   41.67   1.94               
1925   1.57   41.96   1.97               
1926   1.86   42.26   1.99               
1927   2.14   42.56   2.01               
1928   2.43   42.86   2.03               
1929   2.71   43.00   2.05               
1930   3.00   43.48   2.07               
1931   3.20   43.96   2.07               
1932   3.40   44.44   2.08               
1933   3.60   44.92   2.08               
1934   3.80   45.40   2.08               
1935   4.00   45.89   2.09               
1936   4.20   46.37   2.09               
1937   4.40   46.85   2.09               
1938   4.60   47.33   2.09               
1939   4.80   47.81   2.10               
1940   5.00   48.29   2.10               
1941   5.20   48.77   2.14               
1942   5.40   49.25   2.18               
1943   5.60   49.73   2.22               
1944   5.80   50.21   2.26               
1945   6.00   50.70   2.30               
1946   6.20   51.18   2.34               
1947   6.40   51.66   2.38               
1948   6.60   52.14   2.42               
1949   6.80   52.62   2.46               
1950   7.00   53.10   2.50               
1951   7.30   53.46   2.59               
1952   7.60   53.82   2.64               
1953   7.90   54.18   2.68               
1954   8.20   54.55   2.73               
1955   8.50   54.91   2.78               
1956   8.80   55.27   2.83               
1957   9.10   55.63   2.89               
1958   9.40   55.99   2.95               
1959   9.70   56.35   3.00               
1960   10.00   56.72   3.04               
1961   10.32   57.08   3.08               
1962   10.64   57.44   3.14               
1963   10.96   57.80   3.21               
1964   11.29   58.16   3.28               
1965   11.61   58.52   3.35   --   --   --   26   210
1966   12.62   58.88   3.42   --   --   --   35   225
1967   13.55   59.25   3.49   --   --   --   43   230
1968   14.76   59.61   3.56   --   --   --   52   242
1969   15.93   59.97   3.63   --   --   --   63   257
1970   17.54   59.85   3.71   --   1021   --   78   269
1971   18.56   60.17   3.78   --   1086   --   110   280
1972   19.59   60.49   3.86   --   1135   --   151   294
1973   21.34   60.81   3.94   --   1186   --   203   297
1974   21.40   61.13   4.01   --   1209   --   263   324
1975   20.38   61.45   4.09   --   1209   --   364   328
1976   22.05   61.77   4.16   ---   1258   --   433   330
1977   22.89   62.09   4.23   --   1307   --   535   337
1978   23.12   62.41   4.30   --   1351   --   619   363
1979   24.11   62.73   4.38   --   1444   --   640   380
1980   22.98   63.05   4.45   18699   1457   --   711   387
1981   21.73   63.37   4.53   19009   1484   3831   836   395
1982   20.91   63.68   4.61   19100   1487   3980   917   411
1983   20.66   64.00   4.69   19613   1492   3987   1029   430
1984   21.05   64.32   4.77   20510   1625   4192   1245   444
1985   20.98   64.64   4.85   21254   1676   4421   1482   453
1986   22.07   64.96   4.93   21935   1723   4529   1596   459
1987   22.18   65.28   5.02   22701   1808   4629   1736   467
1988   23.04   65.60   5.11   23735   1891   4735   1893   479
1989   23.36   65.92   5.19   24639   1953   4818   1947   478
1990   23.88   66.24   5.28   25393   2000   4718   2003   495
1991   23.80   66.56   5.37   26004   2032   4538   2098   507
1992   23.99   67.00   5.45   27237   2045   4498   2115   507
1993   24.09   67.09   5.53   27707   2080   4383   2187   535
1994   24.47   67.18   5.61   28562   2101   4460   2227   540
1995   24.82   67.26   5.69   29354   2142   4526   2325   569
1996   25.48   67.35   5.77   30307   2235   4649   2408   578
1997   26.29   67.44   5.85   31337   2239   4654   2392   586
1998   26.79   67.53   5.93   32004   2289   4538   2433   594
1999   26.30   67.61   6.00   32969   2351   4309   2524   603
2000   27.25   67.70   6.08   34268   2433   4306   2583   614
2001   27.19   67.79   6.15   34706   2490   4529   2655   589
2002   27.03   67.88   6.23   35286   2532   4848   2699   593
2003   28.02   67.96   6.30   --   2619   5119   2646   595
2004   --   68.05   --   --   --   --   --   --
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pup55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: data dump part 2 Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

forecasts based on the verhulst model
year
oil 2008 peak gb
oil 2015 peak gb
nat gas mcm
coal tons

Code:
2004    28.09    29.35   2757    5,014
2005    28.20    29.73   2815    5,036
2006    28.27    30.07   2871    5,057
2007    28.32    30.39   2926    5,077
2008    28.35    30.67   2979    5,095
2009    28.34    30.92   3030    5,113
2010    28.31    31.14   3079    5,130
2011    28.26    31.32   3126    5,146
2012    28.19    31.47   3170    5,161
2013    28.09    31.59   3211    5,174
2014    27.97    31.68   3249    5,187
2015    27.83    31.73   3284    5,198
2016    27.67    31.75   3316    5,208
2017    27.50    31.74   3344    5,218
2018    27.30    31.70   3368    5,226
2019    27.09    31.62   3389    5,232
2020    26.87    31.52   3405    5,238
2021    26.63    31.39   3417    5,243
2022    26.38    31.23   3425    5,246
2023    26.12    31.04   3428    5,249
2024    25.84    30.83   3427    5,250
2025    25.56    30.59   3422    5,250
2026    25.27    30.33   3412    5,249
2027    24.97    30.05   3397    5,246
2028    24.66    29.75   3378    5,243
2029    24.35    29.43   3354    5,238
2030    24.03    29.09   3326    5,232
2031    23.71    28.74   3294    5,226
2032    23.39    28.37   3257    5,218
2033    23.06    27.98   3216    5,208
2034    22.72    27.59   3171    5,198
2035    22.39    27.18   3122    5,187
2036    22.06    26.77   3070    5,174
2037    21.72    26.35   3014    5,161
2038    21.38    25.92   2955    5,146
2039    21.05    25.48   2893    5,130
2040    20.71    25.04   2829    5,113
2041    20.38    24.59   2762    5,095
2042    20.04    24.14   2692    5,077
2043    19.71    23.69   2621    5,057
2044    19.38    23.24   2548    5,036
2045    19.05    22.79   2474    5,014
2046    18.73    22.34   2398    4,991
2047    18.41    21.89   2322    4,968
2048    18.09    21.44   2245    4,943
2049    17.77    20.99   2168    4,917
2050    17.46    20.55   2090    4,891
2051    17.14    20.10   2013    4,864
2052    16.84    19.67   1936    4,835
2053    16.54    19.23   1860    4,807
2054    16.24    18.81   1784    4,777
2055    15.94    18.38   1710    4,746
2056    15.65    17.96   1636    4,715
2057    15.36    17.55   1564    4,683
2058    15.08    17.14   1493    4,650
2059    14.80    16.74   1424    4,617
2060    14.52    16.35   1357    4,583
2061    14.25    15.96   1291    4,549
2062    13.99    15.58   1227    4,513
2063    13.72    15.20   1166    4,478
2064    13.46    14.83   1106    4,441
2065    13.21    14.47   1048    4,404
2066    12.96    14.12   992    4,367
2067    12.71    13.77   938    4,329
2068    12.47    13.43   887    4,291
2069    12.23    13.09   837    4,252
2070    12.00    12.76   790    4,213
2071    11.77    12.44   744    4,173
2072    11.54    12.13   701    4,134
2073    11.32    11.82   660    4,093
2074    11.10    11.52   620    4,053
2075    10.89    11.22   583    4,012
2076    10.68    10.94   547    3,971
2077    10.47    10.66   513    3,930
2078    10.27    10.38   481    3,888
2079    10.07    10.11   451    3,847
2080    9.87    9.85   422    3,805
2081    9.68    9.60   395    3,763
2082    9.49    9.35   370    3,721
2083    9.31    9.10   345    3,679
2084    9.12    8.86   323    3,636
2085    8.95    8.63   301    3,594
2086    8.77    8.40   281    3,551
2087    8.60    8.18   262    3,509
2088    8.43    7.97   244    3,467
2089    8.27    7.76   228    3,424
2090    8.10    7.55   212    3,382
2091    7.95    7.35   197    3,339
2092    7.79    7.16   184    3,297
2093    7.64    6.97   171    3,255
2094    7.49    6.78   159    3,213
2095    7.34    6.60   148    3,171
2096    7.20    6.43   137    3,129
2097    7.05    6.26   128    3,087
2098    6.91    6.09   118    3,046
2099    6.78    5.93   110    3,005
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Taskforce_Unity
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:37 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Nice, were are you're figures from for gas and coal reserves?

The hubbert coal peak was scheduled around 2032 your peak is around 2025. And weren't gas reserves credited to be somewhere around 6000 Mcm? According to IEA ofcourse so i have no clue if this is credible or not. Are these Laherrere gas figures?

I'll start working on my stuff on friday, got some spare time for it this weekend.
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pup55
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:13 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

The gas reserves per the model above are currently 178.15 tcm. This value makes the curve fit best. The peak date and URR for gas of 262 tcm are from Campbell. The BP energy review estimates current reserves of 175.15 tcm, so I am not ready to say this is too far off.

For coal, the value in the model for current reserves above is 613488 mt, which also makes the model fit best. The BP energy review value is 984,453 mt.

The curve below is adjusted to give a current reserve value of 1,115,000 mt which is closer and does a little better with the current productioin which is 5100 mt/yr, and gives the same peak. I don't know too much about coal. Unlike for oil, the curve is so flat it is hard to model.

If you have a better source of data no problem to make a new curve.


Code:
Year   
2004    5,177.41
2005    5,183.66
2006    5,189.64
2007    5,195.35
2008    5,200.77
2009    5,205.92
2010    5,210.79
2011    5,215.38
2012    5,219.68
2013    5,223.70
2014    5,227.44
2015    5,230.90
2016    5,234.07
2017    5,236.95
2018    5,239.55
2019    5,241.86
2020    5,243.88
2021    5,245.61
2022    5,247.06
2023    5,248.22
2024    5,249.08
2025    5,249.66
2026    5,249.95
2027    5,249.95
2028    5,249.66
2029    5,249.08
2030    5,248.22
2031    5,247.06
2032    5,245.61
2033    5,243.88
2034    5,241.86
2035    5,239.55
2036    5,236.95
2037    5,234.07
2038    5,230.90
2039    5,227.44
2040    5,223.70
2041    5,219.68
2042    5,215.38
2043    5,210.79
2044    5,205.92
2045    5,200.77
2046    5,195.35
2047    5,189.64
2048    5,183.66
2049    5,177.41
2050    5,170.88
2051    5,164.08
2052    5,157.01
2053    5,149.67
2054    5,142.06
2055    5,134.19
2056    5,126.05
2057    5,117.65
2058    5,108.99
2059    5,100.06
2060    5,090.89
2061    5,081.45
2062    5,071.77
2063    5,061.83
2064    5,051.65
2065    5,041.21
2066    5,030.54
2067    5,019.62
2068    5,008.45
2069    4,997.06
2070    4,985.42
2071    4,973.56
2072    4,961.46
2073    4,949.13
2074    4,936.58
2075    4,923.80
2076    4,910.81
2077    4,897.59
2078    4,884.16
2079    4,870.52
2080    4,856.66
2081    4,842.60
2082    4,828.34
2083    4,813.87
2084    4,799.20
2085    4,784.34
2086    4,769.28
2087    4,754.03
2088    4,738.59
2089    4,722.97
2090    4,707.17
2091    4,691.19
2092    4,675.03
2093    4,658.70
2094    4,642.20
2095    4,625.53
2096    4,608.70
2097    4,591.71
2098    4,574.56
2099    4,557.25
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khebab
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Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 935
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

I don't know if it is useful for you but the last OCDE report have put their economical forecast model in annexe. They made some oil price predictions based on different scenarios.

OCDE report
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Taskforce_Unity
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude


Joined: Nov 22, 2004
Posts: 487
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:01 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Wow great OCDE report! Thx, this will help

I', now studying the hubbert formula's when i have some spare time. They are at Die-Off.org at the Laherrere article.
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Taskforce_Unity
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude


Joined: Nov 22, 2004
Posts: 487
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Well i have a lack of time at the moment. Il put the basis online at the end of february.
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