Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
rdsaltpower wrote:
And just wait till all those small home owned systems ditch their lead acid batteries for new ones! Talk about an enviro. nightmare!
Oh come on now, that's just stupid. Batteries are completely recyclable and worth around $10 each as a core charge. No nightmare at all. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
WisJim wrote:
There is a lot of factual information out there about PVs, including publications like Home Power magazine among others.
I use to be a pretty frequent reader of Home Power. Eventually I got tired of the "I spent $50,000 on a solar system and reduced my electric bill by 1/3." stories. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3633 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
I use to be a pretty frequent reader of Home Power. Eventually I got tired of the "I spent $50,000 on a solar system and reduced my electric bill by 1/3." stories.
Yeah. Going solar is only worth it to me if I can cut my bill to zero. That is probably only going to be practical with a combination of cheaper cells and (much more importantly) significantly reduced electricity usage. I think there are a lot more ways to cut electricity usage down than people realize which won't require severe sacrifices. You just have to prioritize and cut the fat anywhere you can.
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
My conclusion about solar is that it's not and will probably never be economically viable. The panels are just too expensive compared to conventional electricity. $0.06 per kWh is just laughably cheap compared to solar.
It seems to me that the benefits to be had from solar are with free standing systems and are basically two fold: A: You have a secure source of electricity in case the grid stops working one day. and B: They are really expensive which can be a great incentive to cut back drastically on your electricity use. A possible third benefit is that for some remote locations, there may be significant cost savings in not having to run powerlines to connect to the grid.
Quote:
Oh come on now, that's just stupid. Batteries are completely recyclable and worth around $10 each as a core charge. No nightmare at all.
To assume that the reprocessing of lead acid batteries is an environmentally clean process strikes me as horribly lacking in insight. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Quote:
My conclusion about solar is that it's not and will probably never be economically viable. The panels are just too expensive compared to conventional electricity. $0.06 per kWh is just laughably cheap compared to solar.
I don't think .06 per kWh will hold for long, it's already higher than that in many places.
Quote:
To assume that the reprocessing of lead acid batteries is an environmentally clean process strikes me as horribly lacking in insight.
I'm not saying it's 100 percent clean but I'm sure it's far from a "nightmare". The most toxic substance, lead, is very valuable and not that hard to recover. The acid can either be reused or neutralized, and the plastic cases recycled. Some other newer technologies are even more benign, not to mention their substantially longer service life. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Solar power is popular because consumers apply the same consumerist logic to what they think "being green" is all about, thereby perpetuating the problem we're trying to tackle.
All the money wasted on inefficient, way too expensive solar power should be invested in technologies that make more sense and in energy in the developing world.
Solar power should be made illegal. The money should be spent on rational actions, such as tackling climate change and energy insecurity (and you don't do this with solar panels) and alleviating poverty in the developing world (the biggest threat to our environment). But then, as I said, as long as consumers are left free to decide what to buy, they will make irrational, wrong choices.
The irrationality of free market capitalism cannot solve our problems. We need science and reason based approaches instead, implemented by the state or a world government of technocrats. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Solar power is an amazing and wonderful thing.
You guys don't have any solar so you don't know. Does the sun shine in your area? If it does you should take advantage of it.
I'm hooked on the stuff. I love the fact that those little electrons showed up for free. You might like paying for them. Mine are delivered every sunny day.
We even got our water heated for free today, thanks to old Sol. The sun has been a bit stingy lately, but today was nice.
I think that solar is the only new form of energy we'll be able to switch to. We are already using all the others. They are dwindling. There is no other alternative.
I have friends who say the same thing. Here's a video of a guy who is one of the great men of peak oil, and he loves solar.
Here's a youtube video about John Howe's solar inventions:
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
lorenzo wrote:
Solar power is popular because consumers apply the same consumerist logic to what they think "being green" is all about, thereby perpetuating the problem we're trying to tackle.
Solar is popular because it's actually available to consumers right now. It works well and reliably for many applications. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3633 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
lorenzo wrote:
Solar power should be made illegal.
That's idiotic and probably not even worth gracing with this response. Solar is really the only viable option for the average individual to take personal control over how they get their energy without pissing off the neighbors or using up too much land. That the grid is cheaper today is all well and good. To some people, they don't want to draw from grid power because it's coal or natural gas powered. To others, they want to build a net underneath them in the case of grid collapse.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4527 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
lorenzo wrote:
Solar power is popular because consumers apply the same consumerist logic to what they think "being green" is all about, thereby perpetuating the problem we're trying to tackle.
All the money wasted on inefficient, way too expensive solar power should be invested in technologies that make more sense and in energy in the developing world.
Solar power should be made illegal. The money should be spent on rational actions, such as tackling climate change and energy insecurity (and you don't do this with solar panels) and alleviating poverty in the developing world (the biggest threat to our environment). But then, as I said, as long as consumers are left free to decide what to buy, they will make irrational, wrong choices.
The irrationality of free market capitalism cannot solve our problems. We need science and reason based approaches instead, implemented by the state or a world government of technocrats.
If nobody buys the expensive, inefficient solar panels, who is going to have the capital to invent the cheap, efficient ones?
If nobody had bought the first expensive ridiculous looking automobiles, do you really think Henry Ford would have invented the Model-T?
Each technological innovation requires a lot of "wasted" money spent by early adapters.
Over time, the technology becomes more widely available as competition causes the quality to improve rapidly and costs to move downward.
Solar panels are cheaper now than ever before.
This chart is already out of date because costs dropped faster than the 1994 prediction. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
My conclusion about solar is that it's not and will probably never be economically viable. The panels are just too expensive compared to conventional electricity. $0.06 per kWh is just laughably cheap compared to solar.
Enjoy your $0.06 kWh while you can. Mercury will soon be regulated as well which means that the coal power plants that account for that cheap power are going to have to build scrubbers that cost several hundred million dollars, or buy expensive emissions credits.
Who do you suppose is going to pay for that?
We are.
I had lunch with one of our corporate guys a few weeks back, he said that Texas was considering installing smart meters which would charge you different rates at different times of the day. Therefore people selling power back to the grid would be credited with the price at that time. Solar power is generated during some of the most expensive hours of the day which would really help pay for it.
I still think that power companies should look into renting people solar panels. That way you could rest assured that your rate was locked in w/o making a huge investment. This would also dump a boatload of money into solar development. _________________ Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
OK, so looks like there are some Carrizo panels from the mid 80's still in use. Most of them, though have either broken or are seriously degraded in output, and that's really more like 20 years, not 30. I'm not saying it's impossible for a panel to last 30 years or more, but if you're looking at the energy math, it seems to me that expecting a panel to last 25 years before it breaks is pretty darn generous. Saying that the average panel is going to last 100 or 150 years, just bends reality.
Our PV panals have a warranty on them. They will produce at least 80% of their power after 20 years.
Some manufacturers even give 25year warrantys.
It takes about 2-4 years to get the energy back in Germany, which is not that sunny btw...
It's expected that those numbers will improve over time.
My oldest 50W module is now about 12 years old and has still its orgfinal output pwoer (but that's a modul for experiments, that sits around in teh dark most of the time).
There are some long time studies around in Germany and sSwitzerland that I know. There is some degardation of old moduls, but most of them work amazingly well after many years. Actual moduls are said to be much better, especially "browning effects" should be reduced significantly...
btw, my home region (Niederbayern) now produces more than 3% of its energy (incl everything) from photovoltaics...
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
In the interest of full discretion, I have some Evergreen Solar stock that has increased in value nicely lately. Green means green. They produce solar panels in the US and in Germany. It lanquished for about two years and is now going up. We have some solar on our house also and solar hot water. I guess I am one of those crazy liberals that you like to rant about. Crazy like a fox!
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 32 Location: South of the Mason Dixon Line
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Re: whats with solar panels being popular?
Somewhat new to the idea of PO, but have been on this site many times over the past year. I ran across this link for solar power, anyone have any info or heard of this before?
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