Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Seems we are in uncharted territory now. Last night on my way into Richmond I sent a message to the dispatcher and asked what the current price is in Atlanta.. I work for Delta. He sent back that we are paying 2.76/gal in our main hub. This is very bad news and immediately means increased ticket prices. Long term if this keeps up it means a loss of profit in an industry which just got about as "lean and mean" as it can.
I dont know what the future holds, but the industry wont tolerate this well if it can at all. Maybe just maybe I should start thinking about writing that book.
AP, over on one of the diesel forums I occasionally visit I was researching the Kerosene fuel for TDI question someone asked on the gasoline thread when I learned something that surprized me. Aparently the mechanics at an unnamed airline all drive diesel vehicals because they fill them up at work with Jet A kerosene. Wether they pay the airline for the fuel or not was not explicitly stated, but assuming they do it would be quite a price savings by escaping all the road taxes on Diese3l. And because Jet A is very well refined it looks like ULSD as now availible in most of the USA so there would be no risk of problems with law enforcement for burning dyed fuel on the road.
How likely is this story to be true vs just another internet wise tale? _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 2297 Location: South of Atlanta
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Ill have to ask around Tanada, I have heard nothing about that around here. I dont see how the mechanics here could get at the JP anyway. There are no terminals or supply areas around our maintenance facility in Atlanta.
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 2297 Location: South of Atlanta
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
More great news......
Avgas is at 4.68/gal
Jet fuel is at 2.80/gal
We may see a reprieve with lowering crude costs but my guess is its going to be short lived this time as rising margins for refiners may not come down as much as the crude price. Once it does catch up we will be into the spring and the upward push will continue anew.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4166 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
Tanada-
This was back in the early 90's, but my sisters boyfriend had a vw diesel and they would fill it up at the airport (he refueled planes). Not sure if this still goes on. _________________ "Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
AirlinePilot wrote:
Yup you can still use 100LL in the car. I do know some who do it.....but why??? Unless your stealing it, it's dumb.
I don't think he is putting 100 octane Low Lead Gasoline in a diesel motor. He is using the kerosene like jet fuel in the diesel. _________________ www.ChrisGeigerPhoto.com
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3278 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
whereagles wrote:
kerosene might cause knocking to a diesel engine. But I think if you add in some toluene, you might get away with it...
Kerosene causes knockin in GASOLINE engines, I have never heard of a DIESEL engine knocking period, the fuel is not injected until it is ready to burn. I have also never heard of people having problems burning Kerosene in diesels, the only complaint i have heard is you get 5% less milage than with diesel fuel because it has a slightly lower energy content by mass. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
whereagles wrote:
kerosene might cause knocking to a diesel engine. But I think if you add in some toluene, you might get away with it...
Engine "knocking" is predetonation of the fuel. This only applies to a gas motor. It happens when the fuel starts to burn before the spark plug is fired. Compressing a fuel/air mixture in a cylinder causes it to create more power when it burns. If the pressure it to much, the fuel ignites on it's own before the spark plug fires. Predetonation can also be caused by hot carbon deposits in the cyclinder and a fuel/air ratio that is too lean.
A diesel the motor "pings" with every stroke. There is no spark plug to fire the burn. The motor is built much stronger and is designed to handle the extra power caused by compressing the mixture until it ignights. This is why diesels are much louder than gas motors. They are pinging all the time. _________________ www.ChrisGeigerPhoto.com
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
There are two types of detonation in a gasoline motor caused by different phenomena. Predetonation, or preignition, is typically caused by a hot spot such as carbon build up or a glowing exhaust valve. The name is self-explanatory. Knock (also detonation) is caused by incorrect ignition timing or lower than required octane levels in the fuel. The 'knock' is caused by an abrupt explosion of the remaining unburned fuel/air mixture in the outer reaches of the combustion chamber (the squish band) before the flame front (travelling outward from its origin at the sparkplug) has time to consume said mixture. This detonation typically throws the piston away from its normal thrust face into the opposite cylinder wall causing the metallic rattle that is heard.
Diesels are noisy mostly because of the injectors. The fuel is injected at up to 5000 psi, causing the rattle you hear. The fuel itself is designed to light spontaneously and the rate of burn is entirely controlled by the injection computer which controls both the length of the injection cycle but also the volume of fuel injected per millisecond. These two parameters are crucial to prevent overloading of the engine's intenal componentry and also to keep exhaust gases temp. relatively low. The timing is also important for fuel economy and emissions.
The robustness of a diesel is required by running very high compression ratios, from 20 or 22 to 1. This gets the design way more bang for the buck thermodynamically than a c/r of 10 or 11 to 1 as seen in gas motors. For a gas motor to run much higher ratios racing fuel or alcohol is needed.
I had two T birds, a '70 and a '75. The former had a 429 ci 360 hp engine, the latter a 460 ci 260 hp. The '70 had 10:1 c/r, the '75 had 8.5:1. (the 429 and 460 are essentially the same engine) That drop of 1.5 cost about 100 hp.
Edit:talking out of my ass again!!
see 3rd para above-pressure spike resulting from combustion of a quantity of fuel injected into cylinder is responsibe for the rattle. Modern diesels give a small pre squirt (sounds kinky?) before the main injection event, initiating combustion and lowering the pressure rise rate, which is why they are so much quiter than your 88 benz diesel
Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 572 Location: Portugal
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
back to the diesel/kerosene thing:
Kerosene has a lower resistance to compression than regular petrodiesel, right? If you put kerosene on a diesel engine, it seems to me that you run the risk of igniting it before compression is complete..
Now, is the above right or not, and is it called knocking or predetonation?
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3278 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Aviation Fuel price record
whereagles wrote:
back to the diesel/kerosene thing:
Kerosene has a lower resistance to compression than regular petrodiesel, right? If you put kerosene on a diesel engine, it seems to me that you run the risk of igniting it before compression is complete..
Now, is the above right or not, and is it called knocking or predetonation?
111% incorrect.
In a diesel engine compression occurs before the fuel is injected, therefore the fuel can not pre ignite or KNOCK.
In a gasoline/otto cycle engine the fuel is mixed into the intake air and then compressed. If kerosene is used you need to add an octane booster like ethanol or methanol because kerosene can ignite from compression. The same thing happens if you have diesel in your gasoline tank or sometimes if you have an oil leak into your intake manifold.
What we call Kerosene is about half way between raw gasoline and raw diesel in viscosity and energy content. It can be used unmodified in a diesel engine and with an octane booster in a gasoline engine. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
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