Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6468 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
I know what you're saying, Bas. I feel the same inconsistency in my feelings about my own country, as my two posts demonstrate. It's easy to understand the pull of nationalism---the desire to be part of something that is infinitely larger and more powerful than yourself.
This will sound terrible to other Americans, but I think I could achieve a sense of pride in a country I were to emigrate to. A smaller, gentler, less pretentious, less imperialistic place. Norway. Holland. Belize. Uruguay. Definitely Oesterreich, where I once lived.
I am proud of what America was, not what it has become. This is agony for me, but I have to be honest with myself. There are still things about America I love, but they too are fading with the spread of the suburban cancer and all it represents.
Many Americans are still lovable, but the government is now a full-fledged MONSTER (in all senses of that word). It's outta control. We've now had a virtual parade of administrations pledging to reduce the size of government, but it's bigger and more intrusive than ever. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3773 Location: over here
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
for their sizes, I think Holland and also Norway (and other small western European nations) are quite pretentious unfortunately, probably more so than the US, France and the UK though I guess they are less (potentially) harmful to the international community.
And Americans are good people, at least equally so compared to any other nation. Mostly I think the political system is outdated though, and doesn't reflect the will of the people anymore, like you basically said.
Goodnite and.....just goodnite.
Last edited by Bas on Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
I tried to vote both pride and love, but I got an error. This is my country, I was born here and I love it, there's no confusion in my heart about that. Admitting love and pride for your country doesn't mean that you are a patriotic robot. On the contrary, it means that you want to contribute and help make it a better place. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6468 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
I have heard many people say that the French tend to be stuck-up, and I've gotten that impression myself from time to time.
Reflecting back on my experiences in Europe, I'd have to agree with you that pretentiousness or arrogance is a characteristic of many Europeans.
I guess I was referring to government policy as opposed to individual human personalities. A government like Norway's isn't in a position to be too pushy or grand or conceited on the international stage. Unlike the US Empire.
Maybe if I were a Norwegian I'd be overweeningly proud too. Maybe they have reason to feel that way about themselves. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6468 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Kingcoal wrote:
Admitting love and pride for your country doesn't mean that you are a patriotic robot. On the contrary, it means that you want to contribute and help make it a better place.
Agreed.
I think it makes sense, though, to question the concept of nationhood when it has been a source of so much conflict and waste. A world goverment would be better (but probably isn't possible); a very localized organizing principle such as Shanny elaborated would be best. We may end up that way, like it or not. I don't think the US and other huge countries are going to be able to keep it together indefinitely going forward. They're going to break up. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Compliments on an excellent thread topic Bas! For me, I have a great love for my country inspired from the basic goodness I see in people around me and it is my experience in my country that this thread runs deep and is still intact, in spite of the onslaught of consumerism and other societal icings and toppings dangerous to our health. I assume that almost all regions or nations have this because it is a natural human tendency to wish to be a part of something larger than one's self. But as you allude, when a nation begins to think that this gives them the right to spill out of their own territory and impose their wills on others or to come to the decision that their culture is superior or of a higher priority and enjoys manifest destiny, well then it becomes a malignant form of nationalism that makes nations a cancer on other nations and indeed on themselves in the long run. Holding a mirror up for someone to see a part of themselves they may not wish to acknowledge is dangerous, but an act of true friendship and respect. But we all are human and even now I am holding back a juvenile tulip wisecrack to get even for the mirror trick...
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3377 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Heineken - when the US Balkanizes will you be proud to be a Virginian? I have a certain pride about Oregon, for all its faults. One thing I relate to about the state is its tradition (tongue-in-cheek) of xenophobia! Not that I don't have plenty of friends who moved here from elsewhere.
Voted "neither" but I certainly feel the pull. Kurt Vonnegut had a word for people who formed associations based on meaningless coincidences - granfalloon. One example I remember him using was people from the same US state. That doesn't mean much now but it may someday. People who were born on the same day, however...
I stopped mooning over the proud US after reading Zinn's Peoples' History of the United States. After realizing how our comforts and civil progresses were based on leisure afforded by cheap energy the whole thing seemed even less impressive - more like inevitable, actually. _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I will not abide another toe.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
I voted neither, but I am not sure how true it is.
Freedom is a hard thing to pin down. Sure, we have freedom of speach, but are we really free to do what we choose to do? And does our government really have any power over that, or is it our society that decides that?
I am proud of many of the things my country has done, but I am ashamed of the things my country is doing.
I love the land. Not sure if I am fond of the people.
Don't ask me. I just work here. You want fries with that? _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Heineken wrote:
Here is what I feel about America: Sadness. Regret. Loss. Embarrassment. Outrage.
That pack of mercenary jackals on Capitol Hill and in the White House should be drawn and quartered. They are traitors, almost to the last man and woman.
The American experiment had its moment but now has failed. .
That pack of jackals you mention has been reelected and reelected and reelected time and time again. If you feel our leaders are traitors, then our people must be idiots. It reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where both presidential candidates are taken over by aliens, and Homer reveals it on national TV, and then both aliens declare, "But you have to vote for one of us; it's a two party system!" So everyone goes through with the election, and they all get shipped off to slavery in the mines, and everyone says, "Don't blame me--I voted for the other guy!"
No, definitely not proud anymore. We've duped ourselves for years and years, mostly because of our pride. It is just so hard to believe that we, the USA, could possibly not be in the right, or even that we might not be the best in something (or anything.) _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6468 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Pixie wrote:
I am proud of many of the things my country has done, but I am ashamed of the things my country is doing.
I think that the bulk of the country's history is shameful. Notable exceptions are some aspects of its involvement in WWI and WWII. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Heineken wrote:
Pixie wrote:
I am proud of many of the things my country has done, but I am ashamed of the things my country is doing.
I think that the bulk of the country's history is shameful. Notable exceptions are some aspects of its involvement in WWI and WWII.
Proud of some things we have done.
Definitely not proud of tbroken Indian treaties, witch trials, slavery, race relations since the civil war other than the civil rights movement... Not proud of Vietnam, Iraq 1 or 2, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran-Contra, nuclear weapons, non participation in Kyoto or Bali, Israel...
Yeah, all told, I guess World War 1 and 2 and the Marshall Plan are about the only high points that I can think of at the moment. The rest is just really good propaganda.
I am proud of some recent developments, such as civil unions and domestic partnerships. I am proud of my state for that reason, and I love the people I know who have fought for these things, against incredibly spiteful opposition, but most of the country is still relatively backward in those areas.
I have voted in every national election of my adult life, but you know, at this point, I just no longer believe it makes any difference. GWB is just more obviously evil because he is less intelligent. What if the smarter candidates are just better at hiding their evil? _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: US: pride or love?
Japanese-American internment: even World War II does not shine.
A japanese-american friend was sitting in a coffee shop on December 7th, while the girls behind the counter talked about it being Pearl Harbor Day. A customer walked in, ordered a latte, heard what they were talking about, turned to my friend and said, "This must be a proud day for you, huh?" And then he walked out, leaving the room dead silent. No one was sure whether he was being spiteful or if he was completely serious. A huge proportion of American society is spiteful and ignorant, and I can not tell whether that is getting better or worse through time. And I am sure that the rest of the world is just as unclear on that as I am. We're like a big retarded child with a loaded gun. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2
Page 2 of 2
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
