The Hydrogen economy - The physics

padisah · Coal Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Hungary

Hi

As I see people often got paniced when they see that hydrogen is just an energy carrier or energy store, just like batteries.

But we shouldn't, it just means we need to build up the excces primary energy production capacity, to support the transportation too.

It does mean, that we need to build up many primary energy sources, let it be solar, wind, nuclear, or algea farms etc. This should trigger a new era of economic growth, because it simultaneusly creates market for industrial goods - something the western world's economy desperatly needs.

Another side of the story is, that hydrogen is not specifically the best tool for storing energy. Fuel cells are expensive, there are material constraints of it's use, yet their electrical efficiency is not that high to overbalance it's disadvantages. Also hydrogen is difficult to store, and transport. It's realtively low energy / space density makes problematic to reach higher range for vehicles.

Batteries, especially li-ion can be better, for short distant vehicles, city-cars with limited capabilities, specialized for city traffic. Batteries have some major disadvantages too. Batteries all have a limited lifespan, which is actually ticking with their use, so it simply adds to the cost/mile for an electric car. It can easily more than the actual energy cost would be.

Batteries, from a chemical point of view storing "free energy" both chemically, and as different concentration levels (li-ion works quite like that). Batteries also contain many supporting material, like battery box, power lines, other non-reacting compounds, etc which does not contribute to energy density, but contribute to mass. Also another problem with batteries, that they hold energy as a chemical inbalance. If something happens to the battery, this imbalance charge out, possibly resulting in an explosion, or a fire. This also happened to lion batteries for various notebooks and some mobile phones too.

To store energy, or rather to convert energy to a mobile use there is a better choice : metals. Zink -air batteries do so very well, and technology can eventually lead to metal-air batteries powered by aluminum or magnesium, both with high energy content. If we consider the better electrical efficiency, both on the battery, and the engine, and the fact that for example Mg has 25MJ/kg energy density which is appr half of the 45MJ/kg of gasoline, we can achieve cars powered by metal-based batteries with the same engine-battery mass as gasoline does now. Recharge rates are also don't count, because the batteries are not rechargable, they have to be replaced, and reworked later, and replace can be done in seconds.

We also have to count with that most renewable energy sources provide a stochastically and/or periodically changing energy. In the case of wind or photovoltaic, it's electricity. Electricity cannot be stored, at least not easily in that amount. An energy carrier - like hydrogen, or a substituting metal can be a perfect tool to balance this, electrical energy which is not used on the grid can be converted to mobile energy.

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

sch_peakoiler · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 555

oops please delete the doublepost.
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Montxo · Coal Joined: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 3

I think you are so confident on scientists (i say that although i´m one of them) The energy required to generate energy from hydrogen, and what it´s worst to get hydrogen from water (for example), is a huge amounts. You musn´t forget this as well as those hydrogen cars are only prototypes. Rellay expensive and with considerable consumptions. If it wasn´t true some countries, like Sweden, would have their roads full of these wonderful vehicles. Hydrogen technology is still in it´s infancy. The reality is the energy generated from oil per volume unit , nowadays, is the greatest for any known sustance which could be produced in huge amounts.

However in my opinion, the big problem is not the peak oil but the huge human population on the earth. Subsecuently to this, the last straw could be oil, water, environment....

What ever happens we only can only contemplate....

Therfore, relax

JJ2000426 · Coal Joined: Nov 19, 2007 Posts: 17

Whether you like it or not, the hydrogen fuel cell economy is HAPPENING at rapid speed. Eevery from the president to an average American are pushing for hydrogen economy, auto makers spent hundreds of billions of dollars researching hydrogen fuel celll vehicles. And ACTUAL hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are right now being test driven by some average families. Hydrogen fueling stations are up and running in all major US cities.

How do you profit from the hydrogen fuel cell revolution? One thing to keep in mind is you can NOT have a hydrogen economy without a precious metal, palladium. Palladium is unique in that it absorbes huge amount of hydrogen and it can be used as the best of hydrogen filter, which is necessary in any hydrogen fuel cell design.

To play palladium, you need to buy the physical metal and buy stocks of PAL and SWC. They are the only two North America based primary palladium producer. I guess in Canada the PAL symbol is PDL, North American Palladium.

Read this article on why palladium is bullish.

Do you know that President Bush started pitch hydrogen economy in 2003, but not before he also installed one of his trusted friend on the board of directors of SWC!!!

lovinglife77 · Coal Joined: Jan 23, 2008 Posts: 2

I saw mentioned under the HHO topic that the HHO gas would not work welll In higher temperature applications but i saw a demonstration using real time generated HHO melt a brick and Tungsten in just seconds....

lovinglife77 · Coal Joined: Jan 23, 2008 Posts: 2

I saw mentioned under the HHO topic that the HHO gas would not work welll In higher temperature applications but i saw a demonstration using real time generated HHO melt a brick and Tungsten in just seconds....

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1523

Back on page 1, the thread author commented that he wasn't an engineer. I am a mechanical engineer, with 30 years in the auto industry, and I have one daughter who is an electrical engineer, and another who is a chemist. Collectively, we can say that the author, if once and thoroughly informed of the technologies he espouses for tech fixes, would then become so completely terrified as to possibly be dysfunctional.

He tells us to leave it all to the pros, who will save us all. I've spent too much of my life attempting to convince non-expert dreamers of the facts of life and physics before I learned a simple rule, to wit:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and irritates the hell out of the pig.

I suppose I should not read the pie-in-the-sky-solution threads.

eclipse · Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Hydrogen for dummies

Hi all,
I'm wondering what your favourite hydrogen economy debunking sites / papers are? I've written a VERY short, dummed down "hydrogen for dummies" page on my blog.

With some good stuff by the great, great grandson of the guy who invented the FUEL CELL even debunking hydrogen — but just thought I'd run it by you guys for any more important (but READABLE for dummies) links.

http://eclipsenow.blogspot.com/2007/07/hydrogen.html
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newbonic

Hi all

I've been browsing this hydrogen thread and noticed quite a few assertions that imply platinum (Pt) is vital for the hydrogen economy. I know of at least one company that produces Pt free electrolysers to produce hydrogen (ITM Power here in the UK).
The H gas produced can be used in a near conventional duel fuel diesel Ford Focus.

Whatever obstacles there are in the way of a H economy, Pt or other precious metal availability may not be one of them.

eclipse

Hi Newbonic... I'm all googled out today, can you please provide a reference? (That's good news if true, and might help backup a renewable grid's power supply if that's the best "battery" we've got). Cheers.
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newbonic

No problem eclipse. The technical blurb on ITMs website is at:
Pt free electrolyser.

The same top level URL describes the duel fuel Ford somewhere (ITM Power).

(edited to add URL)

Gandalf_the_White · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 511

The title should read - The Hydrogen economy - the thermodynamics

Also, nare I point out that the title is an oxymoron, you cannot have a hydrogen economy without considering the economics of hydrogen.

Now there is a sustainable wind to hydrogen model but it is not scalable to cover the entire US needs. Also upgrading the grid to support all 110 million American cars and a 2 to 3% growth path for the economy of the car culture is beyond anything we can manage within a decade.

Sadly there is going to be a suction zone when the USS OilDrum plunges to the bottom and it will take alot of good projects and good ideas down with it. The southwest has a good regional solar resource, other places have good regional wind, but we don't seem to understand that regionlization and even localization contingencies are a safety and not a step backwards.

EROEI is the issue. It takes energy to make hydrogen. It takes energy and time to make the infrastructure.
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greentech · Coal Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 3