I'm thinking about moving out of the United States

chrispi · Tar Sands Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 80

I'm getting sick of the ridiculous politics on both sides and the general head-in-the-sand attitude of my fellow citizens and the asinine attitudes of those in power towards issues that really matter, e.g. Peak Oil.

Take the race for the presidency. It doesn't matter who is going to win--Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Huckabee, Romney, Giuliani--we're going to still be stuck in Iraq for generations to come, all because of our stupid energy policy. I am sick of the two-party oligarchy that runs this country, and, in my past naivete, did my utmost to change the first-past-the-post electoral system to break the stranglehold that the Demopublicans and Republicrats have on the government. However, I could not find anyone interested in real, substantiative change in the way things are run. Most people are "sheeple" who would prefer to vote on American Idol than vote for President, I am afraid to say, and government of the people, by the people, for the people is impossible in such a state.

Our prolifigate energy use is the main issue of the day, and not one of the talking heads mentions it. Instead, we have discussions on vague concepts such as "electability" and "likability." We care more about how well a candidate's hair is coiffed than his or her position on energy sustainability. I hate to say it, but such an ill-informed people deserves the Dark Age that Peak Oil will deliver.

That being said, what can I do? It's too late to change the system peaceably from within, and it's much too early for people to "shoot the bastards." I, along with many others, seek something else. Maybe emigration is the answer. But where do I go? Europe? Canada? Asia? Australia or New Zealand? These places have their own problems, and may not welcome refugees from the most powerful nation on earth.

I suppose that I should mention some criteria:

*The prospective country should be working towards energy independence.

*It should have free and open institutions of government, with an actively engaged populace.

*It should have a good job market for skilled immigrants.

*Clean air, water and food is essential.

*Marriage benefits are always a plus.

*Services for people with disabilities (e.g. autism) would be nice, too.

Does such a place exist? Or am I a Utopian? The grass is always greener on the other side, as they say... Perhaps I could move to a swing state in the US, where my vote would count. Oregon sounds nice.

Tyler_JC

1. "Skilled immigrant", what is your skill?

2. Marriage benefits. Are you currently married and if so, have you talked to your spouse about this?

3. Services for people with disabilities. If the doomer fantasy comes true, no country in the world will have these services provided for free.

4. Oregon is currently being overrun by refugees from California, join them at your own risk.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
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katnipkid · Tar Sands Joined: May 30, 2007 Posts: 37

Yup, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. It sounds like you want to move to the perfect place. It doesn't exist. Besides, you may want to move to _____, but, the residents of that country may not want YOU. And don't think cultural differences don't matter, THEY DO. Do what you can where you are living now.

Leanan · News Editor Joined: May 20, 2004 Posts: 4490

I know where you're coming from. I think the best place to be depends a lot on who you are. If you're a liberal gay atheist, Mississippi is probably not where you want to be when TSHTF, no matter how much water and cheap farmland it has.

While it's true that staying where you are has some appeal, especially if you have family there, the fact is, some people are not going to fit in, even in their home towns. If you're different - in race, religion, politics, etc. - you might want to move somewhere you'll fit in better.

I like Canada myself. Hey, it'll be nice and comfy if global warming turns the US into toast. Very Happy

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chrispi · Tar Sands Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 80

I just checked the polls and they suggest that I should move to Canada or New Zealand. I suppose that both have their advantages and drawbacks...

Canada: Close to family (especially British Columbia and Alberta,) higher standard of living than NZ ($$$). Cold, cold, cold.

New Zealand: Much better climate, better quality of life than Canada. Cost of living is low, but manufactured goods are more expensive.

I'm leaning toward New Zealand right now, not just because it looks pretty, but because it is sparsely populated (4 million people) and is still largely agricultural.

What about the east coast of Australia?

anarky321

id much prefer the dense forests of canada to the agricultural fields of new zealand if TSHTF, at least you can hunt, and besides, canada is only going to get warmer;your argument for population doesnt hold, canada is much less densely populated per square kilometer , new zealand is #90 and canada is #229 on the population density ranking

Lanthanide

Population density does matter, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all.

If there is only a limited amount of a particular resource to go around, then a country with fewer people won't have to stretch it out as far. So this could easily go for electricity, coal, oil, gas, medicines, plastics and other manufactured goods.

As far as "at least you can hunt" goes, NZ has a large food surplus that we export, so you will never end up starving in NZ (forgoing crop failure of course). You may not have a very wide variety of food to choose from at the government soup kitchens, but there will be food available none-the-less.

kokoda · Heavy Crude Joined: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 420

As an Australian it pains me to say this ... but NZ is probably your best option.

It meets most of your criteria.

*The prospective country should be working towards energy independence.

New Zealand now has electricity.

*It should have free and open institutions of government, with an actively engaged populace.

NZ is a democracy ... at least according to prime minister for life Helen Clark.

*It should have a good job market for skilled immigrants.

Depends ... do you do much work with sheep?

*Clean air, water and food is essential.

Clean air, water and food is just about all they have got.

*Marriage benefits are always a plus.

NZ women aren't that fussy ... after all they do marry NZ men. And then of course there are all those sheep.

*Services for people with disabilities (e.g. autism) would be nice, too.

A socialist paradise with free health care for all.

Kingcoal

I think you should slow down and just think about moving somewhere within the US. One of the things that a lot of people don't understand about the US is that this country is very diverse. If you are socially conservative then the Deep South is a good option. If you are socially liberal (and it sounds like you are) then one of the big cities in the Northeast is probably a good choice. Within the US, you can find a place where people think like you and you feel comfortable with.

As a couple posters have noted, you really need to understand that you are probably not the prize that other countries have been waiting for. You will always be an alien in another country; that's just they way people are. If you were a famous celebrity, then things might be different. Otherwise, you are just a disgruntled American and will be looked upon as a loser. You're an American - that "stigma" will be with you wherever you go outside the country. People are xenophobic everywhere. If you are very handsome and attractive to women, then women will like you and want to get to know you. However, if you are just an average Joe, you'll find that you are just an average Joe no matter where you are. In the US, young women are in the cities. If you are having problems finding a mate, go to where the women are.

The other thing to understand is that peak oil affects the whole world. Countries with clout will fair the best and in that regard you are already living in one of those countries. Why not do this; go back to school and get a degree in Environmental Engineering or some other ticket with which you can make a positive dent. Better yet, stay in school and get a Ph.D. With that you have lots of options. The universal rule of thumb in the world is that the more credentials you have, the better.
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electric_future

pstarr

chrispi, I know just how you feel and that is why I moved behind the Redwood Curtain. No, there is no place on earth that is immune from stupid right-wing nut jobs who rise to power on the backs of poverty and ignorance. You will find it everywhere. Look how the French government just did a political u-turn and has quickly become GW's best friend Shock

I understand New Zealand just swung way to the right Confused

The United States is huge, relatively under populated, wealthy, and you are blessed to be living hear. Having said that I would work really hard to find the right place.

It might be in a big city. The wealthy neighborhoods will always have access to necessities and be protected by the police. Regular folk will always be needed to perform services

Or it could be places like here: very very remote and socially diverse and tolerant.

Or it could be a small town in rural farming community.

Check out the numerous different threads here for many more discussions.

Oh, and in my opinion stay the hell away from Central American enclaves like Costa Rica. This wealthy white country is surrounded fanastic overpopulation and people living in abject poverty amongst a culture and history of unbelievable violence.
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katnipkid · Tar Sands Joined: May 30, 2007 Posts: 37

First, I agree with Pstarr concerning Costa Rica. I have heard the same from folks who have lived or visited folks who lived there. And they said even if you purchase the land, it is possible for squatters to come on it and make a claim. You=rich American, they=local folk. Who do you think stands a chance??
I would be very,very careful not to stereotype too much about the various regions of the USA. I am a gay man, and of diverse ethnic heritage. Let me have a few words on this topic. I found New England-and NY state- to be one of the most intolerant places I ever lived,I was openly harassed as were members of my family and we were born and raised there. And NYC, well, all I can say is ...YUCK!! Nasty, rude, hateful people. I never experienced so much hostility as in NYC. I found the south to be the complete opposite of what I expected it to be. I went there expecting to be lynched. The people I met had a cordial, live and let live attitude, even if they absolutely would not approve of me. Not true of New England, not in my experience. And I found the northern midwest to be near paradise. People up there are so nice, so decent. A friend in Wisconsin said folks there way are not liberal, but they are tolerant. I can see that. If it weren't for the winters, I would live in the northern midwest-except for Chicago- in a heartbeat.

Lanthanide

The polls here are showing a favour for the right at the moment, as this next election will be Labour's 4th in power. It's more a case of people being bored with the current government and wanting a change, than the government doing anything terribly bad.

There is still a good chance that Labour will win the next election though (election late this year in Nov), especially if some of this economic-collapse stuff starts happening and Labour gives a good show of coping with it.

However, our right-leaning policians are still more liberal than the democrats in the US are.

Nicholai

Those dense forests of Canada aren't really all that dense anymore. Vast swaths of Canadian forests are being knocked out by the Pine Beetle.

The Pine Beetle can disperse at an amazing speed (80km within a week) and (for all intensive purposes) impossible to contain. The forests turn red and then rot.

Problems with Canada that I foresee;

1) Close proximity to the US. Will 300 million people go out like a light or will they pursue their wealthy neighbor to give them a hand? Canada has enormous fresh water and oil reserves although none of which are actually owned by Canadians.

2) Canada's economy isn't Canadian. Since the signing of NAFTA, 13,000 Canadian corporations have been taken over by foreigners (mostly the US). We are much more similar to a colony than an independent nation.

3) Canada's reliance on the US. More than 80% of our raw materials are sent to the US. If the US economy takes a slide, ours will follow the same footsteps.

4) Canada is VERY multicultural. Canada takes in 250,000 immigrants each year with a population of 32 million. In most major cities, white people are now the minority (unlike the US, Canada's 'founding' populations were white (usually around 90%) and Aboriginal (10%)) Living in a highly competitive, post peak world will be horrendous in these areas as different races, ethnicities and religions compete for control and dominance over the other.

I've been looking at the Scandinavian countries for quite some time, as well as Costa Rica.

mmasters

Ultimately there is no safe place. Although NZ is probably the best of the bunch for what you seek.