Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
nemo wrote:
I also fail to see what's inherently bad about big government. I happen to think that my own keynesian state (Sweden) functions quite well, and that government can provide certain services better, cheaper, more fairly and more efficiently than the free market. A well run government of and for the people can be as big as it needs to be AFAIC.
Just because the status quo in U.S. politics is less than ideal, I don't understand why Paulistas automatically assume everyone recognizing this automatically ought to believe that laissez-faire economics and the dismantling of the state is the universal solution to all problems. Then again, having had the state run by neocons for a long time is sure to cause a huge mess - how can you expect a man to excel at a task he fundamentally believes ought not be carried out?
This is a good post and much more reasonable than i tend to get when discussing this stuff. Living in America it gets tiresome having to hear about the evils of government from the same Love It or Leave It crowd all the time.
The libertarian positions is full of myths, like the efficiency of the private sector. I've worked in a number of successful private companies and never thought much of their efficiency. But that said, I'm not a communist either. The advantage of the Keynsian solution is that it avoids fundamentalism at either extreme and is free to choose the best tool for any particular job. The free market is a useful tool for some things. However, the key is exactly what you point out. It is useless to debate thee merits of two approaches to a problem when your goals are not the same.
I believe that anyone in America in 2008 making the argument for free markets are either naive to the point of idiocy, or they do not actually want a more beneficial society for regular people and they are using the free market as a smokescreen for theft of public assets, i.e. the neocon cabal.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3765 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
nemo wrote:
I also fail to see what's inherently bad about big government.
I think big government only works when the people in the government are mostly benevolent and trustworthy. That tends to be the case in northern europe, but not so much in most other regions. Advocates of minimalist government tend to be the cynics who understand that power corrupts.
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
mos6507 wrote:
nemo wrote:
I also fail to see what's inherently bad about big government.
I think big government only works when the people in the government are mostly benevolent and trustworthy. That tends to be the case in northern europe, but not so much in most other regions. Advocates of minimalist government tend to be the cynics who understand that power corrupts.
I disagree. Government works when the people in government are accountable, monitored, and beholden to the population. Nothing to do with benevolence or trustworthiness at all.
Recognizing that power does corrupt, also recognize that government is certainly not the only locus of power. And where there is a power vacuum, power of another sort will sure as crap come in to fill the void. Hope you like whatever that entity is better than that evil government.
There's nothing in the water in Northern Europe that should make it possible there but not here. We do have to drop the tear it all down attitude though, and actually engage in our government.
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
There's a very strange thing happening in the US election campaign and that is that Ron Paul has more support than Thompson but Paul isn't even mentioned or talked about. What's going on and why do the American people put up with this show of bias by the media?
Could the reason be that most people know that the libertarian idea is a whackjob ideas which is supported by quite a considerable number of people but not ever to be taken seriously? Obviously Ron Paul's ugly selfish reforms could never be allowed to happen sowhat is happening is just an effort to not acknowledge a protest faction. Has it got something to do with the fact that Ron Paul promises to end their Iraq war and everyone understands that will not happen because it can't happen? Very strange politics indeed! Do the majority of people see it as nothing but the politics of greed of the supply-my-siders? Can any of the Americans explain?
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Could the reason be that most people know that the libertarian idea is a whackjob ideas
I see you are not an American, but if you knew your history at all you would also know the entire country was founded on that 'idea'.
(This is coming from a redcoat) _________________ "One minute I held the key, next the walls were closed on me, and I discovered that my castle stands upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand."
ALTERNET: The title of your book is How to Rig an Election. Can elections be rigged?
RAYMOND:: Sure. We're not talking about what people often think about, like ballot box stuffing. Certainly, that stuff goes on here and there. What we are really talking about in the book is how messages are created and delivered to the voting public, in a way that orchestrates and manipulates response. It's all about feeling an emotion; it's not about raw issues and logic.
In the book I give a lot of examples of rigging elections by, put it this way, guys like me -- I used to be a campaign manager. Once you are all said and done and deliver a message, two plus two equals whatever I want it to equal. The facts and sometimes even contorting the facts to lead voters to conclusions that may not necessarily, if you step back, make any sense -- but, in context, make all the sense in the world.
There's that aspect of it. Then there's just the more raw aspect of it, which leads up to the culmination of the book, which is the 2002 New Hampshire phone-jamming scandal.
ALTERNET: Why is emotion more important than facts?
RAYMOND:: Well, because people are looking at the candidates. The candidates are on television, mostly. That's where they get their information, particularly on presidential campaigns. Less so in congressional campaigns and local elections, but in presidential campaigns, that's where voters get their information -- by watching the television news. The characters are there. They are defined for them. They know what they look like. They can read their facial expressions. They can hear their words if they're spoken. Largely, that's where people are getting their information, as opposed to information from print media, which is just not the case anymore.
The candidates can't help but speak and emote. It's that famous saying from the Roger Ailes book, "You are the message." You have to believe what you are saying. And so, in that way, it's the medium in which most voters are getting their information.
All though this article did not really surprise me. It still kind of makes me sad to hear about how blatantly toxic our precious "democratic" process has become. He also throws blame at both the Republican and Democratic sides. Neither have clean hands. _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Re: How to Rig an Election: Confessions of a Republican Oper
Yeah, I just watched the interview on the Daily Show from last night. Not very surprising. Rigging phone lines is nothing to what's been done in the past and what's going on now or what will go on this November and the months prior. Could anyone imagine the shitballs that would be flinging if it's Clinton vs. Huckabee? _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Battle_Scarred_Galactico wrote:
Could the reason be that most people know that the libertarian idea is a whackjob ideas
I see you are not an American, but if you knew your history at all you would also know the entire country was founded on that 'idea'.
(This is coming from a redcoat)
I know a little history and I know a little about how Americans think too. And I think that many want to interpret their constitution in the way you characterize the country. But I still think it is a minority view and is really not was ever intended because IMO to listen to Ron Paul and follow his lead would be taking things to the extreme. Shirley you can't accept his ideas as things he would likely follow through with, even if they were actually possible!
I just don't think it's quite 'that' bad in that country yet. Perhaps you don't either and are exaggerating the case to make a point. If so then point taken.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3765 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
aflurry wrote:
There's nothing in the water in Northern Europe that should make it possible there but not here. We do have to drop the tear it all down attitude though, and actually engage in our government.
The dominant culture and ideology of northern europe is different from the US, just as it is in many places in the world, like Saudi Arabia, Japan, China, etc...
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
I saw this post on the same subject in a different forum, and though it a thing of beauty for the effort involved alone, never mind the actual content:
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Is Ron Paul history now or is he still stumbling along? I agree though nemo, he's a piece of work. However he did appeal to about 10% of the Republicans and that's a little alarming. I think it may have been in desperation because the the libertarians had to hold their noses on his antiwar stance. Ronnie boy has been a contributor to antiwar.com for years now. His stance on homosexuality must really irk Raimondo.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4458 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Paul came in second in Nevada. Decent showing for being pretty much totally ignored by the media. _________________ "Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
frankthetank wrote:
Paul came in second in Nevada. Decent showing for being pretty much totally ignored by the media.
That's encouraging in a way Frank but it's most likely that Republicans don't know where to turn now and some of them at least can see that Bush is destroying their country.
Ron Paul couldn't get elected to dogcatcher in that country because it would be a marriage made in hell for conservatives. They love their wars and Ron Paul doesn't. They would never make the sacrifices needed to elect Paul so Paul could abolish income taxes, Social security, blah, blah, blah. What a f'ing joke!
Joined: Jan 14, 2008 Posts: 321 Location: The Yukon
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
frankthetank wrote:
Paul came in second in Nevada. Decent showing for being pretty much totally ignored by the media.
He is ignored 'cuz he is a magnet for all the conspiracy theory wingnuts and lovers of urban legends. Did u watch
his interview on Meet the Press last week? He
doesn't have the intellect to be a small town mayor.
Here's his standing after yesterday's voting:
_________________ www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits)
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