Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
Sprint shedding 4,000 workers.
Quote:
Sprint to Fire 4,000 Workers as Customers Defect (Update2)
By Crayton Harrison
Jan. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Sprint Nextel Corp., the third- biggest wireless carrier in the U.S., will fire 4,000 workers and close stores after losing more subscribers than analysts estimated last quarter.
Sprint fell the most in more than five years. The company said today that it shed about 683,000 contract customers, more than the 350,000 estimate of Stanford Group Co.'s Michael Nelson.
...
Bloomberg
_________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
Alcassin wrote:
the more you consume the richer you are. This is in LoneSnark's words "economic progress"
According to this we should be richer than Norway since we consumer much, much more than the average person there does. But, they are richer and consume less. We can consume very little while still being rich, since like you said...
GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)
If our exports are much greater than our imports they can make up for relatively little consumption in order to have a similar or higher GDP than a country with a lot of consumption, or by increasing investment, etc...
cube, guess who is wealthier and guess who consumes more...
Like MrBill said,
MrBill wrote:
The problem in my opinion is that posters are confusing wealth creation and higher living standards with conspicuous consumption. They are not the same.
The better question IMO is why are Americans encouraged more than anyone else to consume conspicuously. I'm guessing it has something to do with GDP and population. IMO Chindia is going through something similar. _________________
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 521 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
cube:
GDP per capita in Norway is higher, they invested much because when you consume 90% and invest 10% your ability to grow is simply smaller than the situation when investment is 20, 30, 40 %.
Anyway Norway makes it only because of exports of oil and gas. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
LoneSnark wrote:
But there is a major difference between China/India and Africa. By all accounts, Africa is awash in natural resources, most of which are untapped today because they are poor. By all accounts, India and China are resource poor just like mainland Europe; what they have are billions of people.
Aside from politically unstable places like Iraq, there are not that many "untapped" places left on this planet. And even if all those places were to be magically opened up by tomorrow morning that still doesn't change the fact we still live in a "finite" world.
LoneSnark wrote:
Africa is filled with resources, everything from oil to bauxite to diamonds but is comparatively lightly populated, with 21% of the world's land area and only 14% of the world's population. So, like Australia, a rich Africa would be a net resource exporter in my opinion, going a long way to supply China and India with what they need.
I see your argument. Basically you're saying if Africa was rich then they would be using advanced technology and modern business methods (like USA and western Europe) to extract resources much more efficiently and thus drive down the price. Sorry, that argument doesn't cut the mustard. problems:
1) We must get rid of this idea that there is a huge pool of virgin land / resources just waiting to be extracted and instead learn to live with what we have now. That's how we got into this environmental mess to begin with. Don't worry PO will solve that problem very soon. *wink*
2) Just because Africa is poor and people are living on $2 / day that does not necessarily mean they are using primitive techniques to extract resources. Take Nigeria for example. The oil industry is operated by western companies using modern methods. It wouldn't surprise me if MOST of the resource extraction in Africa is done using "modern" techniques. South Africa is another example where German companies operate gold and diamond mines.
3) Technology is a double edge sword. Yes it can increase efficiency however I think some people confuse "efficiency" with extracting resources at a greater rate. The 2 are NOT the same. I can make an argument that much of our high standard of living was made possible by extracting greater quantities of resources and NOT because of efficiency....but that can be saved for another thread!
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
I watch documentaries from the BBC. Mines in Africa which had been closed for decades were just now reopenning thanks to fresh capital goods from Chinese investors. It was sad to see how happy the miners seemed to be with their new tools: a pneumatic hand drill from the 1950s to make a hole for the dynamite and then after detonation they would load the ore by hand into carts and push it, by hand, to the steam powered elevators.
Another documentary was how ore was being mined in Sweden: a remote controlled platform pulls up to the ore face, drills many holes at once and pumps in explosive which is then detonated from the safety of outside the mine. It is then picked up by a electrically powered front loader (it has an extension cord that automatically retracts as the vehicle moves) and then dropped in a shoot which drops it into an electric ore train which then dumps it into the electrically driven elevators. BTW: the operators of these vehicles are not even in the friggin' mine! They manage all this via cameras and computer assistance from the safety of a downtown high-rise! I was truely amazed when I saw this.
As for Nigeria in particular, there is a reason only offshore oil platforms are using modern technology: they are the only ones that can be effectively defended from the African mainland. Once you go ashore you are on a different planet where modern weapons are used right next to primitive production techniques.
Which, I hope I do not need to point out, is an exageration. South Africa is a modern industrialized country in many respects, and it is joined by a few other nations on the continent. But the rest of Africa is best described as 'broken'.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
To: LoneSnark
The analogy of the apple tree. The extraction of apples goes through 3 stages:
1) the low hanging fruit
2) using a ladder to get the hard to reach apples
3) picking ALL the apples, even the ones infested with worms and half eaten by birds. Hey at least you can make apple juice with it!
From reading your posts you make it seem like we're still at stage 1. This is where you and I disagree. I firmly believe humanity is at stage 2 right now in our quest for global resource extraction. Climbing up and down a ladder to pick apples requires much more work and that's one of the BIG reasons for this massive bull market in commodities.
yeah I should of used a non-renewable resource as an example to make my point.
------------------------
add on:
Yes there are still places around the world that have NOT utilized modern technology, financial capital, and business practices in their quest for resource extraction. However these areas of the world are usually occupied by uncooperative dictators and people who walk around with either rocket propelled grenade launchers or Kalashnikov rifles over their shoulders. I would hardly call that the "low hanging fruit"! --> even if all these unstable areas were to be magically opened up tomorrow it still would NOT make a difference. The global thirst for commodities is so huge, even if we discovered another Iraq it would only give us/the world another 4 years. That's how dire the situation is.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
Well, Cube, it is nice to see you and I completely agree with one reservation: the situation is not dire; it is barely harsh. We agree that Africa is backwards; we agree that if it became modernized the World would be a better place; we also agree that Africa will never become modernized. We also agree that more apple trees can be planted. All in all I would say this was a very fruitful discussion, we did achieve consensus, after all.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
It seems to me - and I may be wrong - I once thought I made a mistake, but it turns out I was right - but when we speak about low hanging fruit and resource depletion it is because we are speaking about the current least cost method of extraction and/or production. That equation never stays stable. It is constantly in a state of change as habits and tastes change; as technology changes; and due to scarcity. Then we shift to 'the next best alternative'. When they say that ' necessity in the mother of innovation' they are not kidding. Africa has a great future ahead of it, but it lies in their hands, and it will not look like its past. Are they up to the challenge? They aren't at the moment. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
MrBill wrote:
It seems to me - and I may be wrong - I once thought I made a mistake, but it turns out I was right - but when we speak about low hanging fruit and resource depletion it is because we are speaking about the current least cost method of extraction and/or production. That equation never stays stable. It is constantly in a state of change as habits and tastes change; as technology changes; and due to scarcity. Then we shift to 'the next best alternative'. When they say that ' necessity in the mother of innovation' they are not kidding.
*scratches head in confusion*
I thought the "low hanging fruit" is not necessarily a reference to what is the current method; but instead the good old days when resource extraction was so much easier.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
No, the good old days are the flights of fancy enjoyed by old people. They never really existed. They are a construct of old people with health problems remembering a time they happened to be young and therefore lacking health problems. They long for a time when life was simple because when you are a child life really is simple; not because life was simple but because they were children.
In reality, the best time to be alive has almost always been the present. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance, so maybe someday the 'good old days' might actually exist.
Macy's Cutting About 2,300 Management Jobs in Decentralization Move
CINCINNATI (AP) -- Department store operator Macy's Inc. said Wednesday it will cut about 2,300 management jobs as it consolidates three regional divisions and decentralizes buying in a bid to reduce costs and boost sales.
The Cincinnati-based retailer said it will immediately begin consolidating its Minneapolis-based Macy's North headquarters into its New York-based Macy's East, its St. Louis-based Macy's Midwest organization into its Atlanta-based Macy's South and its Seattle-based Macy's Northwest headquarters into its San Francisco-based Macy's West.
The consolidation of the office organizations expected to be completed in the second quarter of 2008 will affect 950 positions at Macy's North, 850 positions at Macy's Midwest and 750 positions at Macy's Northwest in Seattle.
...
_________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 4189 Location: 1st territorial capitol of AZ
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
There's a Macy's in Sunnyvale, California, which I used to go to once in a while. I got shower curtains there and a new pillow once in a while - they'd actually have some reasonably-priced stuff if you knew to be look back in the corners. I myself only used the place for necessities like that, and no matter what time I went, it always seemed to be rather empty. The people working there were either white, and had been working there forever so they probably got decent pay, had their houses paid for etc and were just staying through sheer inertia, or immigrants who barely spoke English, would serve "their own" ahead of someone not "their people", and were annoying and unhelpful.
I'm not surprised to see Macy's going down actually.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4526 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
I_Like_Plants wrote:
There's a Macy's in Sunnyvale, California, which I used to go to once in a while. I got shower curtains there and a new pillow once in a while - they'd actually have some reasonably-priced stuff if you knew to be look back in the corners. I myself only used the place for necessities like that, and no matter what time I went, it always seemed to be rather empty. The people working there were either white, and had been working there forever so they probably got decent pay, had their houses paid for etc and were just staying through sheer inertia, or immigrants who barely spoke English, would serve "their own" ahead of someone not "their people", and were annoying and unhelpful.
I'm not surprised to see Macy's going down actually.
I had a similar experience with the Macy's around here. They have nothing that you can't get at Wal*Mart for half the price.
Macy's has a better jewelry section, a better perfume/makeup/whatever section, and a better handbag selection ...but I don't buy any of that crap so if the entire Macy's chain were to disappear tomorrow, I don't think I'd notice or care. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Let the layoffs begin
RE Macy's
All those big box department stores that try to be everything to everyone usually just end up being mediocre. No one misses them when they are gone because they are all so similiar that you just go down the street to the next one or go instead to a smaller specialty store for what you're really looking for.
A bit off-topic, but here in Cyprus there is so much empty retail space that it is ridiculous, and many stores only stay open a few months - up to a year - before they go out of business. As ILP said, you could pretty much go into any of them at anytime of the day and they would be devoid of customers.
Also, used cars for sale are starting to pile up like rats in a garbage dump. No one wants them. Everyone who can is selling their family's farmland for development to buy new Mercedes or luxury SUVs. The rest are going into debt to keep up with the Jonesopouloses down the street by doing the same thing even if it means renting instead of buying their apartment. No one can afford houses anymore. Too expensive.
I think the real economy here is really sick. A dead man walking basically kept afloat by inward foreign investment in real-estate, but how many second homes, retirement villas and beachfront apartments are those foreigners going to really need if the global economy slows down and they need to redeploy that capital elsewhere? Perhaps to paydown their primary mortgage in the UK for example?
Most of that development was done on speculation when prices were going up 25-40% per year. That's now over and there are a lot of empty houses and apartments sitting around and rents are stagnating or falling. Nevermind the poorly built properties that were built inland and basically have nothing to offer prospective tenants. Those lower quality, older apartments are like those used cars. No one wants them.
This is a big reason that I generally do not buy the decoupling idea. I think we were all eating from the same rice bowl of excess global liquidity that was fuelling asset price gains around the world, and now that is all grinding to a halt as the growth in the real economy is simply not there to support that development. It was all a big asset bubble. Places on the margins like Cyprus may seem quite immune to problems in the big markets like the US, UK or EU, but because they are on the margin they likely expand more quickly, but also contract equally as fast.
In six months to a year from now you will be able to pick-up seaside apartments, almost new Mercedes and slightly used luxury SUVs, and almost anything else around here at knock-down prices. The Cypriots have been on a spending binge for the past few years and there is no fallback plan. Just water rationing and a lot of debt to repay! ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
