Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3646 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
JPL wrote:
There is nothing to fear about a life without electricity. We have had several thousand years of civilisation & only in the last 80 so has this little gimmick been widely available. It's not 'essential'. Why do you think it is???
JP
This is an extremely naive thing to say. Electricity is not just about gadgets. If you eliminate oil (and by extension natural gas) then you eliminate the primary means humans heat their homes. If they can't use electricity instead, then they will then revert to extremely polluting coal or deforeset the planet for wood. I don't think there is room for everyone to just crowd the equator either. So just because some people have moved to some remote area and keep warm with firewood and live like the 1800s doesn't mean the 6+ billion people can follow suit. The current population size simply PROHIBITS that we abandon technology.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3589 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
For myself, I understand the excitement. While I wish I could just time-jump to the afterwards, I know that the upcoming future is going to be bad.
But!
It is the possible corrections, after the chaos, that I am hoping to see. And, I understand that the correction cannot come without the chaos first.
That's why I am prepping... _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
xerces wrote:
threadbear wrote:
A confession:
Three nights ago, my husband and I lit a fire in the fireplace in the bedroom, turned out all the lights, slowly took our clothes off and slid under the covers. Then we turned the dial on the radio to Coast to Coast with Ian Punnett, and giggled like schoolchildren, as economists rattled off their predictions for 2008. It was awful, yet strangely exciting.
I should be sad, freaked out, worried for people, including myself, and how do I feel-- Like I've just taken a bracing cold shower, exhilerated....alive!
How sick in the head am I?
This is extremely disturbing. Treating a period of potentially great hardship as something "exciting" only works when the bad consequences doesn't happen to you. Imagine having to cram your entire family into a tiny room of bunk beds because that's all you can afford. Imagine, for a moment, having to choose between buying food for your kids or having heat on during the dead of winter. Think about what it would feel like to see your parents succumb to illness due to the lack of medical care, and not have the means to do anything about it? How about having to sell yourself(or perhaps your daughter?) off as escorts to make money so that your husband could have medicine? Not quite so exciting is it?
The truly disturbing thing is that the hard choices I mentioned is actually being forced upon more and more people, all of them living within a 10 mile radius of my home.
It is interesting to see what's happening, though not on the level you're talking about. If you're on that level then my regards. The world can be an unbelivably crude place. Then again be careful not to let the general publics' problems become yours.
I can only think people are here to experience these times because it has been determined necessary for their soul evolution. That said we're all ultimately on our own here and can only truly help ourselves to rise above this situation (i.e. there is no Superman that is going to save us). I believe the real test here is not allowing yourself to become a victim or oppressor. That is ultimately where the great hidden power lies. _________________ Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destory health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
I just reread my original post. I think what I find exciting (and not all in a good way) is just the uncertainty. The giggling is partly a nervous reaction.
The exhilaration is about the challenge and interesting times ahead. This is the first time I've lived in "historic times". That has to be a big part of it. I consider it a challenge and approach it as head on as possible. That's probably why I frequent this forum so much....even though I don't agree with the politics or ideologies of some of the posters, and don't even think energy is going to be a dire problem, there is something everyone here shares. They are facing the future with their eyes wide open.
One more thing...as my opening post sounded callous. I'm in B.C, We're getting ready for the Olympics in 2010 and the economy is very strong for the moment, so many people think that a global downturn won't affect them and are spending themselves into oblivion.
It's irritating to hear people talking about buying an 800,000. house to renovate and flip, at this point in time. I hate to admit it, but I do actually enjoy the thought of these people getting their economy 101 lessons the hard way.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6428 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
Threadbear, my feelings on the basic subject vacillate. Some days I have the Schadenfreude you've alluded to. Other days I feel empathy for the suffering of others.
The Schadenfreude is motivated by my bitterness and anger toward people's ignorance, stupidity, and destructiveness. Sometimes it seems to me that no punishment is severe enough for a sentient being bent on destroying the loveliest planet in this arm of the universe.
The empathy is driven by my own experiences of suffering. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
Heineken wrote:
Threadbear, my feelings on the basic subject vacillate. Some days I have the Schadenfreude you've alluded to. Other days I feel empathy for the suffering of others.
The Schadenfreude is motivated by my bitterness and anger toward people's ignorance, stupidity, and destructiveness. Sometimes it seems to me that no punishment is severe enough for a sentient being bent on destroying the loveliest planet in this arm of the universe.
The empathy is driven by my own experiences of suffering.
I wonder if schadenfreude isn't also driven at times, by seeing parts of ourselves, hopefully parts we've discarded, in others.
When I think of the people in the NorthEast having to choose between heating and eating, I want to cry.
It's those who don't appreciate the suffering of others; not human pain, animal pain, planetary pain, who I want to see suffer. Is that vengeful, judgmental, or just a yearning for justice?
Historic moments are always portrayed in the movies as being the full of heroics, bravery, courage, evil, lust, etc.. etc.. The movies just can't capture the ambivalence that a real life sea change evokes.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6428 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
[quote="threadbear"]It's those who don't appreciate the suffering of others; not human pain, animal pain, planetary pain, who I want to see suffer. Is that vengeful, judgmental, or just a yearning for justice? [quote]
I'm with you there, T. 100%.
(I capitalized "Schadenfreude" because it's a German noun. But on second thought I realize that you are right to lowercase it, since it's been absorbed by English.) _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Mar 04, 2007 Posts: 504 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
threadbear wrote:
It's those who don't appreciate the suffering of others; not human pain, animal pain, planetary pain, who I want to see suffer. Is that vengeful, judgmental, or just a yearning for justice?
I'm inclined to say that it's a yearning for justice because I feel the same, and I am disinclined to see myself as a vengeful person. There may be a hint of jealousy among some, though I am not implying that in your case.
The jealousy comes from seeing the selfish "succeed" in every manner - economically, politically and socially. Although we may not have the same idea of success as the rest of the crowd, it's hard to reshape our emotional responses, having been born and raised along with the crowd in an environment where material success is valued above all else. There may yet be some lingering resentment toward the wealthy. Though wealth clearly does not lead to happiness (look at Donald Trump, that miserable idiot), we've been taught for so long that it does.
Unfortunately, I don't think we will see justice done, at least not fully. Those character traits that you loathe - selfishness and greed - have survived in our culture, and were probably born in the "cultures" of animals from which we evolved. They survived because they work in the great game of survival. Altruism and empathy work, too, for different reasons.
All those character traits will survive in the selfish and greedy people who make it through along with the decent. There may even be more of them. The truth is, we're all a little bit of both, though I like to think that some of us here have a lot more of the good in us than the bad. _________________ "We shall live in interesting times, and we shall die in them too." - Heineken
Joined: Mar 05, 2006 Posts: 420 Location: East edge of the Milky Way
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
Heineken wrote:
The moment disaster becomes personal, the fun ends. The giggling ceases.
I don't feel excitement at the prospect of total collapse so much as anger---anger at the foolishness, stupidity, and greed that have brought us to this brink.
Also, I'm damned scared. I know that there's a very good chance I will be a participant in future nightmares, not merely an entertained spectator.
That pretty much sums it up for me also Heineken. My main concern is how will my 7 yr old daughter fair with what's coming. I'm hoping Providence provides me a few more years to teach my daughter all the things I know that may increase her odds of doing better than the average person...this is when it gets personal and the giggling certainly ends.
As an aside, I don't wish to see others suffer. Despite all the wrong things that people have done, in the end we are all a 'world-polity' of humans, made to help each other as we can.
Alex
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
mos6507 wrote:
JPL wrote:
There is nothing to fear about a life without electricity. We have had several thousand years of civilisation & only in the last 80 so has this little gimmick been widely available. It's not 'essential'. Why do you think it is???
JP
This is an extremely naive thing to say. Electricity is not just about gadgets. If you eliminate oil (and by extension natural gas) then you eliminate the primary means humans heat their homes. If they can't use electricity instead, then they will then revert to extremely polluting coal or deforeset the planet for wood. I don't think there is room for everyone to just crowd the equator either. So just because some people have moved to some remote area and keep warm with firewood and live like the 1800s doesn't mean the 6+ billion people can follow suit. The current population size simply PROHIBITS that we abandon technology.
Well we may be about to find out (grin).
Seriously though, this 'fear' of a life without power, factories & technology is one of the tools that the current (Capitalist/Industrial) set-up uses to keep us all in line. Loose the fear and then you start to see the world for what it really is.
Joined: Mar 04, 2007 Posts: 504 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
How bad it gets has a lot to do with location. If you're in a sparsely populated area with a decent sized woodlot - and you know how to survive in such a place - you have a lot less to worry about. Other locations may be just as good. _________________ "We shall live in interesting times, and we shall die in them too." - Heineken
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: The awesome excitement of total collapse
FreakOil wrote:
How bad it gets has a lot to do with location. If you're in a sparsely populated area with a decent sized woodlot - and you know how to survive in such a place - you have a lot less to worry about. Other locations may be just as good.
We have a woodlot, but it would be a drag to have to cut all our wood if we had no oil at all, or it was very expensive.
Here in Maine you need about a thousand acres to live a fairly meagre lifestyle. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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