Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
The problem is the people at the lower positions don't make a
"living wage". Food and shelter take all their money, some can't even cover that. How many years did it take to raise the minimum
wage? Even then we had to give businesses more tax breaks to
get it to pass. I recall when companies were contracted to clean
up after Katrina they brought in workers from other countries so
they could pay less than minimum!
It's great that a person with 10 years education can make hundreds of thousands. But why does a teacher with 5-7 years
education (most need a Masters nowdays) make much less than
half that? Even many of our Military are on food stamps.
The gap is too great. Ethically and even realistically you have to pay people enough to live on. Or you pay them through the welfare
state.
Trickle-down economics is a lie.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
The problem is the people at the lower positions don't make a
"living wage". Food and shelter take all their money, some can't even cover that. How many years did it take to raise the minimum
wage? Even then we had to give businesses more tax breaks to
get it to pass. I recall when companies were contracted to clean
up after Katrina they brought in workers from other countries so
they could pay less than minimum!
It's great that a person with 10 years education can make hundreds of thousands. But why does a teacher with 5-7 years
education (most need a Masters nowdays) make much less than
half that? Even many of our Military are on food stamps.
The gap is too great. Ethically and even realistically you have to pay people enough to live on. Or you pay them through the welfare
state.
Trickle-down economics is a lie.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
prism wrote:
The problem is the people at the lower positions don't make a "living wage". Food and shelter take all their money, some can't even cover that. How many years did it take to raise the minimumwage? Even then we had to give businesses more tax breaks toget it to pass. I recall when companies were contracted to cleanup after Katrina they brought in workers from other countries sothey could pay less than minimum!
It's great that a person with 10 years education can make hundreds of thousands. But why does a teacher with 5-7 years
education (most need a Masters nowdays) make much less than
half that? Even many of our Military are on food stamps.
The gap is too great. Ethically and even realistically you have to pay people enough to live on. Or you pay them through the welfare
state.
Trickle-down economics is a lie.
This is exactly the point some of us are trying to make. There are many people within the economy adding a HUGE surplus of value for their labor and simply not getting compensated enough to live.
Their associated taxation is low as a result of their low income.
The whole problem stems from price Vs value. If you are in a position where you can command a high price e.g. a CEO you will get it irrespective of the value you add, the inverse is true of some impoverished garment worker in South America.
This of course is the ultimate failure of economics as we know it and how it is taught. It only gets worse when you dig deeper and find the billions in corporate welfare given to already wealthy entities.
In any event it's not difficult to educate oneself on some of these issues the unfortunate thing in my experience it oftentimes appears that people who are put at relative disadvantage (low wage/income) by the system will stand steadfast behind it while other higher paid professionals can hold a more nuanced opinion and discuss possible changes.
One thing I found particularly contemptible over the years has been people willing to give free market medicine but when they need to take it themselves suddenly have an epiphany that it's not so sweet and good for them. A classic case being white collar workers especially in IT having their jobs outsourced, the reaction was often but but this was only supposed to happen to car assembly and blue collar workers. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
Someone earlier in this post said something about how people who do live within their means' children will be paying this back in years to come.
I wish that there was a way that I didn't get this money, and then, when my children are required to pay more in taxes to fund this, they would be able to not have to pay a certain percentage. I feel the same way about the war, too, that only those in support of this war should have to pay for it. Since it's all outside the budget, at some point taxes will go WAY up when someone inWashington figures out how much we owe to all of the countries loaning us money to keep us afloat. The next generation is really going to hate us.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
Also, someone was talking about the amount that the US pays vs how much the Europeans pay, and what everyone gets for their money. Well, I'm no expert, but I did live in 3 Euro countries over 18 years, and stateside. From my viewpoint, it seems that we all pay about the same. Europeans pay (from what various friends tell me) 1 big tax. From that, they get medical care no matter what happens (the wallpaper and immediate availability to certain services is different)from birth to death, parents get a child allowance (sort of like the measly $300 we'll be getting per child, but instead, a monthly allowance from the time the fetus is in utero in some countries to 16), education from early childhood to university level (in the US...either save up or take out loans) or trade school, excellent public transit in nearly all corners of Europe, and a few other goodies. Things that they don't have to scrimp and save for, nor go bankrupt over (as is the case with medical bills in the US).
In the US, we pay: Federal, Social Security, State, City, and I think I' may be forgetting one or 2, but I've never thought that we get what we pay for because it's so fragmented.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Government takes over US mortgage industry
Concerned wrote:
This is exactly the point some of us are trying to make. There are many people within the economy adding a HUGE surplus of value for their labor and simply not getting compensated enough to live.
Their associated taxation is low as a result of their low income.
The whole problem stems from price Vs value. If you are in a position where you can command a high price e.g. a CEO you will get it irrespective of the value you add, the inverse is true of some impoverished garment worker in South America.
This of course is the ultimate failure of economics as we know it and how it is taught. It only gets worse when you dig deeper and find the billions in corporate welfare given to already wealthy entities.
In any event it's not difficult to educate oneself on some of these issues the unfortunate thing in my experience it oftentimes appears that people who are put at relative disadvantage (low wage/income) by the system will stand steadfast behind it while other higher paid professionals can hold a more nuanced opinion and discuss possible changes.
One thing I found particularly contemptible over the years has been people willing to give free market medicine but when they need to take it themselves suddenly have an epiphany that it's not so sweet and good for them. A classic case being white collar workers especially in IT having their jobs outsourced, the reaction was often but but this was only supposed to happen to car assembly and blue collar workers.
I get what you are trying to say. I have been against outsourcing since it began hitting our manufacturing base and am still against it now that it is hitting the white collar workers. How can you compete with someone in China or India making $1 or $2 an hour? It would be poetic justice if they started outsourcing the CEOs.
mommy22 wrote:
Also, someone was talking about the amount that the US pays vs how much the Europeans pay, and what everyone gets for their money. Well, I'm no expert, but I did live in 3 Euro countries over 18 years, and stateside. From my viewpoint, it seems that we all pay about the same. Europeans pay (from what various friends tell me) 1 big tax. From that, they get medical care no matter what happens (the wallpaper and immediate availability to certain services is different)from birth to death, parents get a child allowance (sort of like the measly $300 we'll be getting per child, but instead, a monthly allowance from the time the fetus is in utero in some countries to 16), education from early childhood to university level (in the US...either save up or take out loans) or trade school, excellent public transit in nearly all corners of Europe, and a few other goodies. Things that they don't have to scrimp and save for, nor go bankrupt over (as is the case with medical bills in the US). In the US, we pay: Federal, Social Security, State, City, and I think I' may be forgetting one or 2, but I've never thought that we get what we pay for because it's so fragmented.
I agree that Europeans have more generous social programs. But don't kid yourself. It is not free. It is payed for in the form of higher taxes and higher unemployment. Nor is it one big tax. They pay income tax and consumption taxes just like in the US.
tax burden:
US..................32.7%
France............44.3%
Denmark..........48.0%
Germany..........50.7%
Sweden...........51.5%
Abstract Tax Burden Burden
I am not trying to argue which system is better or worse here. But I think it is important you have all of the facts before you criticize a system. _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
Financial Times article
A leading Democratic lawmaker on Tuesday called for $20bn in public funds to be made available to the Federal Housing Administration to purchase and refinance pools of subprime mortgages.
The proposal from Barney Frank, Democratic chairman of the House financial services committee, comes amid indications that Democrats in Congress are becoming increasingly willing to advocate direct taxpayer-funded intervention in the mortgage market – widening the political divide with the Bush administration.
Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com told the House financial services committee that it would take about $250bn in upfront funds to purchase all 2m loans expected to end in foreclosure by the end of this decade.
If you are as outraged by this as I am, write your representative. It worked with the Amnesty thing and it will work again if enough people are angry. Here a text I got from Test
You can just paste it into your representatives contact section of their website.
Please do not support the efforts to bail out mortgage holders and mortgage lenders with my tax dollars. As a responsible citizen, I do not believe it is right for you to ask me to pay for other peoples’ financial excesses, especially since a bailout encourages lenders to continue making predatory loans, with the assumption that taxpayers are on the hook. Further, we believe that the liability of the mortgage mess should NOT be shifted to GSE’s Freddie and Fannie.
I appreciate the goal of helping people to have access to housing, but any proposed bailout will only reward lenders and borrowers who acted irresponsibly, and it will punish people who work hard and diligently manage their finances by not buying houses which they cannot afford.
The housing market has begun a process of correction. This is necessary in order to keep housing affordable in the long-term. Let the market correct so we can achieve stability again, and people are able to save and afford the house of their dreams over time. That really is the true American Dream. _________________ One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
--Empedocles
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
I sent one to my representative just now - Eddie Bernice Johnson, Dallas, Dist. 30.
I added a line about a bailout punishing long-time renters, many of whom are on the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder. _________________ “I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” George Carlin
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 4860 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
Its estimated that about HALF the people caught by the housing bubble were "flippers" who were buying houses in hopes of flipping them for big bucks.
Another big slug of them were people who kept refinancing their homes every couple of years and taking out big slugs of cash based on their "equity" to live the good life as their appraised values went up.
These kinds of people weren't innocent and naive homeowners. They were financial speculators.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
Quote:
A leading Democratic lawmaker on Tuesday called for $20bn in public funds to be made available to the Federal Housing Administration to purchase and refinance pools of subprime mortgages.
20 billion? That's chump change. The fed gives that out to the banks on almost a weekly basis in their anonymous "term auction facilities." Then there's the Federal Home Loan Bank, that has lent the big banks something like 150 billion.
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 2371 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
Plantagenet wrote:
Another big slug of them were people who kept refinancing their homes every couple of years and taking out big slugs of cash based on their "equity" to live the good life as their appraised values went up.
These kinds of people weren't innocent and naive homeowners. They were financial speculators.
Yes true. Basically idiots (another way to say average people). Banks didn't use to lend money to idiots. Our office administrator was one of them. Youngish, new parent bought townhome, sold for big profit, bought suburban home, sold for bigger profit, bought huge home far out of town - then takes "equity" loans out to furnish and accessorize and buildout more and landscape. Crazy.
She left before the decline started so I don't know her situation, but I imagine it's not good.
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
Most of the homeowners currently in trouble I've talked to aren't subprime borrowers or speculators. They're generally homeowners with little or negative equity due to the real estate balloon. Many people borrowed against the temporary higher value of their home, or they bought at the peak. If they don't have enough savings, income or credit they can't sell due to their negative equity and a flat market. Rising property taxes, heating costs and overall real inflation just adds insult to injury.
When housing started skyrocketing I warned many people about buying in certain areas since I thought the properties were extremely overvalued and that the property taxes would likely double or triple after the reassessments. Had they listened, they would have bought in areas with rising stable property values, reasonable taxes and they wouldn't be facing foreclosure, short sale or tax auction.
I had to laugh at some of the comps and some of the appraisals I saw during the peak of the real estate balloon.
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Barney Frank proposes housing bailout
U.S. House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank said on Wednesday that Democrats are preparing a housing rescue plan and looking at the possibility of the government buying distressed mortgages.
"We are talking about ways in which we can use the power of the federal government to get into this," the Massachusetts Democrat told reporters after meeting with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and prominent economists. "The goal would be to have the lenders ... recognize their losses in the literal sense, to take the losses, to accept the fact that many of these mortgages have to be substantially written down."
If lenders are willing to do so, "we would then be prepared to have the federal government ... purchase some of the written-down mortgages, to the extent that the amount they were written down to could be paid off by the borrower," Frank said. "There's no guarantee to any borrower." [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/ b...T00906820080305]Link[/url] _________________ One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
--Empedocles
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