Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
1. Get on the county commission. Better to be making the rules. Some places, this may not be too difficult.
2. Go someplace so marginally liveable that the government or corporations will not mess with you. Example: The vast expanse between Minot and Glacier Park.
3. Get mobile. In a way, this attachment to some land restricts your mobility. Hit the road and do not look back.
4. Arm and/or organize. In the US, this has been attempted several times thoughout history: In 1775 the colonists tried it, and it was successful, up until now. In 1790, the Whiskey Rebellion was organized, and it was a dismal failure, quashed ironically by the same people that did the revolution in 1775, but by then were in power. In 1835, Sam Houston tried it, and it was marginally successful, except they then decided to merge with the USA so as to take advantage of the "benefits" of being within the system, such as military protection against Mexico. In 1860, the confederates tried it, and it was a long, bloody, dismal failure. In the late 1800's a lot of utopian societies were established, so that like minded people could band together in an intentional community to live in a way that was aligned with their various beliefs and lifestyles. Examples: the Oneida Community, The Amana Colonies, and the City of Zion in northwest Missouri. A lot of these did fine for a long time. The latter one was able to form its own little country briefly, until the benefits of being within the US slightly exceeded the drawbacks.
The recent examples of this have mainly ended tragically. Examples: Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Freedmen. Reason: They did not gain enough critical mass politically, and the continent is now more crowded than before, making it more difficult to get this to happen. There are a few exceptions to this, however.
The reason that both of these cases worked is that the founders had enough sense to contribute beneficially to the local community, thus avoiding ticking anyone off, had enough resources to make it stick, and attracted enough voters to become politically important in the respective local areas.
Drawback: You are replacing one set of tyrants with another.
The moral of the story: One jerk with a shotgun trying to defend his front porch is going to fail. Many jerks, who can get a couple of seats on the county commission are going to succeed, if not too wacky and the place is conducive to it.
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
smileyhouston wrote:
so what solutions do you suggest?
I would suggest we stop acquiescing to being ruled by the criminal elite. Seems few people are interested in doing that, so bitching about it on a computer discussion group is the best solution I've come up with. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
smileyhouston wrote:
Speaking of food prices, I'm sure that most of you are aware of
ethanol being responsible for that. As the stock feed price goes up
for corn, so does dairy, beef and products within that domain.
I think many people are very aware of the impact ethanol production
is having on the market. But ethanol it's hardly to blame for the
effect it's having on food prices, overpopulation is. The trend
towards shortages due to running down grain stocks has been
building for some time. We have been drawing down grain stocks
like a credit card because we are running into limits to our current
methods of food production.
"World Grain Stocks Fall to 57 Days of Consumption...
...marking the sixth time in the last seven years that production has
failed to satisfy demand. " (2006)
http://www.energybulletin.net/17261.html
Ethanol price competition is actually probably a good thing because
it is raising food prices "before" more sever world food shortages
sink in. This means for the right price, the biofuels market can be
put back into the food market and prices will help encourage people
to either grow more or cut back. So I think ethanol will have a
softening effect on the already present trend of production
shortfalls in grains.
It's convenient to blame ethanol, but ethanol can't fit in without
raising prices in the rest of the market because there is no more
room to grow crops. So the real problems are, limits to farmable
land, depleted farm land, energy prices, fertilizer shortages,
droughts, persistent droughts and most important too many people
chowing down world grain stocks.
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
smallpoxgirl wrote:
I would suggest we stop acquiescing to being ruled by the criminal
elite. Seems few people are interested in doing that, so bitching
about it on a computer discussion group is the best solution I've come
up with.
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
alright, what about depleted reserves that independents should be allowed to drill but for one reason or another they can't, and what about more deep offshore drilling?
Adding alternative fuels... wind, solar and coal emissions....
Thats why I asked eminent domain vs. surface rights? What steps or compromises should we make to meet our demand?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4267 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
smileyhouston wrote:
alright, what about depleted reserves that independents should be allowed to drill but for one reason or another they can't, and what about more deep offshore drilling?
Adding alternative fuels... wind, solar and coal emissions....
Thats why I asked eminent domain vs. surface rights? What steps or compromises should we make to meet our demand?
I see answers, but not solutions.... nor action.
Take a step back. Ask yourself if more oil is really the answer.
If you max out all of your credit cards, is another credit card the answer?
Think about the assumptions you are making when you think about "alternative fuels".
If you really want to get to the heart of the problems you are raising you're going to have to put a lot more mental shoulder into the task.
Even if you do put the time and effort into obtaining a nuanced understanding of the issues you are raising, you are likely to find that your audience will NOT like what you have to report to them.
If you haven't already, check out Matthew Simmons' website. He has some good presentations that will get you started.
To me, eminent domain and surface rights don't have much to do with the peak oil issue. It's not grouchy property owners that are causing our energy problems.
You're focusing on scraps. Think about why we found ourselves focusing on scraps in the first place. What does harvesting scraps suggest about our situation long-term? _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4267 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
smileyhouston wrote:
Matt Simmons writes for our publication. And with us at peak oil, this raises several issues.
1. What can we do to reduce demand?
At some point, high prices will help.
Quote:
2. what can be done to meet demand?
Near term, keep poking holes in more remote and/or dangerous spots on the earth.
Quote:
3. What energy resources can we implement to compensate?
Please read a little more on this topic. Finding a way to meet demand is not a solution to the energy problem, just like finding another crack rock is not the solution to the problem of crack addiction. _________________
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Eminent Domain vs. Surface Rights
Smilely I suggest reading the Hirsch report.
Check out Jevons paradox as well.
We have put ourselves in one hell of a fix and we are about to find out how unsustainable it truly is. _________________ There will come a day when we would have wished to do a little evil for a greater good.
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