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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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Now we all know about 10% ethanol which is spreading across America faster than the mortgage crisis... but now (as we read in PO.com news) we find that 10% ethanol isn't quite enough to keep all the gas wasting personal vehicles on the road.
So now it's been decided to take crop burning to a new level by doubling the amount of corn ethanol mixed with gasoline from 10% to 20%.
We all need to know where this is heading:
Less grain exports.
More soil depletion.
Faster aquifer depletion.
Higher prices for all grains.
Higher prices for all crops.
Deeper hunger in developing nations, especially Mexico.
Worsening pollution.
Worsening fuel efficiency.
But as our desperation to prove that the American way of life is not negotiable, where will this end up? Do we convert all our crops to fuel? How many people must starve before we stop this selfish crop burning? By 2010 30% of the US corn crop will be converted into ethanol. This is equal to twice Canada's total grain production.
This criminal madness is happening before our very eyes and no one seems to be doing anything to stop it. _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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pstarr Expert


Joined: Sep 27, 2004 Posts: 7089 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| eastbay wrote: | | This criminal madness is happening before our very eyes and no one seems to be doing anything to stop it. | As you may well know eastbay I am doing the best I can.
Nobody but nobody scams their biofool waste-product scheme here without but hearing from me. Awe rat nah  _________________
ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap  |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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Yeah... me too pstarr. This fake 'green' ethanol bandwagon makes me ill.
And I'm glad to read you're doing what you can about this. I do read your postings on this. Others too. Now I want some elected officials to do the right thing and step up and say:
"This ethanol madness must stop! It's going to kill millions of people!" _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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Fishman Intermediate Crude


Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 724 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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eastbay
Your comment:
This ethanol madness must stop! It's going to kill millions of people
Could just as easily be
This high petroleum price madness must stop! It's going to kill millions of people
The two are the same. |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| Fishman wrote: | eastbay
Your comment:
This ethanol madness must stop! It's going to kill millions of people
Could just as easily be
This high petroleum price madness must stop! It's going to kill millions of people
The two are the same. |
Not necessarily fishman. I disagree.
For now, we should be taking steps toward conservation rather than converting food crops into fuel. Mitigating the harsh effects of fuel scarcities can be accomplished by simply using less meaning increased efficiency.
But that's not what we're doing! We're refusing to conserve and moving straight to the last resort; crop burning.
Burning food crops to provide fuel for terribly inefficient personal vehicles is a very poor and shortsighted idea. It's beyond comprehension. It will be illegal someday; maybe even a crime against humanity. Ethanol should be a carefully managed final resort used for very specific purposes and applied long after all conservation means have been applied and exhausted. But we've started doing it already simply to maintain our horrible wastefulness.
Are we really at that final point? No. Not yet. _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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DomusAlbion Moderator


Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1583 Location: Nez Perce Nation
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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Gentlemen,
I mean no disrespect to any. However, I believe that you are howling against the wind. It will matter little at this point to try to mitigate against an inevitable future that was set in motion over 100 years ago. I would put the people that are trying to make the "bio-fuel" switch into the same category.
The simple truth is that we humans did what we did. We switched to a non-renewable energy resource and like good organisms in a favorable environment we multiplied. Now, that resource is nearing the down slope and when it descends the human population will follow that descent.
It is now just a matter of waiting for history to be played out.
"What is past is prologue."
-- The Tempest, William Shakespeare _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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Well said DA. I agree, of course, that it's just a matter of time before we're burning ourselves.
However, there's just something disgusting and rotten to the core about igniting peoples food so some ignorant gluttons can drive their SUV's and large personal vehicles a bit longer.
It creates an excessive amount of needless pain for so many. All to keep some heartless slobs driving around. _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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dub_scratch Intermediate Crude


Joined: Dec 16, 2004 Posts: 706 Location: Santa Monica, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| pstarr wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | This criminal madness is happening before our very eyes and no one seems to be doing anything to stop it. | As you may well know eastbay I am doing the best I can.
Nobody but nobody scams their biofool waste-product scheme here without but hearing from me. Awe rat nah  |
...and nobody but nobody has taken apart the great agro-fuel scam in this forum better than you, pstar. I often notice that spammer/scamers like Lorenzo are reduced to restating their claims in ways to that make them sound new and not already fully refuted. And doing it over and over again. That aproach probably works well with the public who doesn't pay much attention. |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| dub_scratch wrote: | | pstarr wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | This criminal madness is happening before our very eyes and no one seems to be doing anything to stop it. | As you may well know eastbay I am doing the best I can.
Nobody but nobody scams their biofool waste-product scheme here without but hearing from me. Awe rat nah  |
...and nobody but nobody has taken apart the great agro-fuel scam in this forum better than you, pstar. |
Pstarr, I too thank you. At first I, like many, didn't initially 'get it' about ethanol. Now I do. I love it when I get a sweet paradigm change. This one hit me like a hammer a few months ago... better late than never.
Because we can't just sit around and watch while this madness escalates, the question is: What do we do about it? _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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The_Toecutter Light Sweet Crude


Joined: Jun 18, 2005 Posts: 1736
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| Quote: | | Because we can't just sit around and watch while this madness escalates, the question is: What do we do about it? |
1) Remove big oil and big auto from our government
2) Bring back widespread mass transit to cities and suburbs, mostly using electric trolleys, using all the savings that would be accumulated from halting the oil wars
3) For automobiles, dump the internal combustion engine in favor of electric motors/batteries
Voila. No more oil wasted to grow corn to make EROEI < 1 ethanol that is wasted for automobile fuel. Best of all, all the technology and infrastructure to make this feasible already exists today. _________________ The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson |
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pstarr Expert


Joined: Sep 27, 2004 Posts: 7089 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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eastbay, dub_scratch, thanks for the kudo's my men
The_Toecutter, love your singular and correct vision  _________________
ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap  |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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Double...
pstarr.... you too... how do we make this happen. It seems as though the wind is blowing against us on this.  _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Last edited by eastbay on Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eastbay Moderator


Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4438 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| eastbay wrote: | | The_Toecutter wrote: | | Quote: | | Because we can't just sit around and watch while this madness escalates, the question is: What do we do about it? |
1) Remove big oil and big auto from our government
2) Bring back widespread mass transit to cities and suburbs, mostly using electric trolleys, using all the savings that would be accumulated from halting the oil wars
3) For automobiles, dump the internal combustion engine in favor of electric motors/batteries
Voila. No more oil wasted to grow corn to make EROEI < 1 ethanol that is wasted for automobile fuel. Best of all, all the technology and infrastructure to make this feasible already exists today. |
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And how do we make this all happen toe cutter? _________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha |
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Fishman Intermediate Crude


Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 724 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| What can we do about it? Buy what little corn thats fit for popcorn, sit back and watch it all unravel. |
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dinopello Fission


Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 2882 Location: The Urban Village
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol=Crop Burning |
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| eastbay wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | The_Toecutter wrote: | | Quote: | | Because we can't just sit around and watch while this madness escalates, the question is: What do we do about it? |
1) Remove big oil and big auto from our government
2) Bring back widespread mass transit to cities and suburbs, mostly using electric trolleys, using all the savings that would be accumulated from halting the oil wars
3) For automobiles, dump the internal combustion engine in favor of electric motors/batteries
Voila. No more oil wasted to grow corn to make EROEI < 1 ethanol that is wasted for automobile fuel. Best of all, all the technology and infrastructure to make this feasible already exists today. |
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And how do we make this all happen toe cutter? |
Seriously ? It takes excrutiatingly hard work at the local level working the people and the local government levers. Under "normal" times the process is sooo slow, you have to deal with idiots (some of whom are very intelligent) and it takes the patience of a polar bear catching a seal through a hole in the ice. Seriously. Anyway, I am an amateur but I know people. Even in an incalcitrant place, planting the seed could help. When the crisis hits the seed might come out of dormancy. There is no easy way and it can't be done on the intertubes.
pstarr- I also appreciate your tenacity on the biofuel issue. Reminds me of my Bullmastiff when she gets pissed off. (don't be the object of her ire). |
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