Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 675 Location: Illinois
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
funzone36 wrote:
Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels?
If you are asking if the metals for a wind turbine could be mined without fossil fuels, we delved into that topic in this thread:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic36252-0-asc-60.html _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
Dezakin wrote:
I thought that hydrogen refining of steel impregnates it with hydrogen that causes very poor metallurgical performance. Is this significantly less expensive than direct CO2 reprocessing?
It would certainly be easier technologically than CO2 reprocessing.
Concerning hydrogen in your steel, well there is some problem with it.
Smelting of iron so produced would remove most of hydrogen excess and this product should be good at least for bulk applications like concrete reinforcement.
Adjustment of levels of other contaminants always present in steal (carbon, phosphorus, sulfur) would at least partially help to mitigate this problem.
Quote:
Sometimes I wonder what the far future will bring. For instance plasma confinement seems to be a dead end for fusion, but it might prove useful someday in advanced materials processing. I cant see how today, but say you can keep corrosive plasma from eroding away your walls, then you could just thermally decompose bauxite. Any other far out ideas?
You would not need fusion grade plasma setups.
After all even at 15 000*C Al2O3 would completely dissociate.
The problem is that you would have mixture of Al and O ions with electrons.
You would have to apply magnetic field to separate Al and O ions (both of these would be at 15 000*C positively charged btw, so some simplified designs of calutron would be used for separation).
Electrons, which would also be a plasma constituent would be captured by Al and O ions in cooler sections of apparatus where ion receivers are placed, so elements would reconstitute and leave apparatus in vapor phase.
Construction of walls of apparatus in the section where neutral elements are reconstituting from ions and electrons would be the most tricky part (magnetic confinement would no longer be possible there and temperatures would still be in range of 5 000-10 000*C).
I think, an expansion of magnetically separated hot plasma to large intensively cooled vacuum chamber with interior wall covered with refractory oxide ceramics (Al2O3 or ZrO2) through magnetic nozzle would be a best bet here.
I think, it would be possible and well within reach of few US laboratories to build demonstration setup right now.
However I would not be prepared to estimate cost of aluminum made in such a process as it is easy to make a few orders of magnitude error here.
Somehow, I think that humble reduction of easy available aluminum oxychloride with sodium or potassium would work out much cheaper, but who knows?
If you have built huge plasma reactor, it could perhaps compete.
It is well known from fusion research, that economy of operation of plasma reactors improves very much with size.
Thank you. I love how there were many sources and references on that thread. Much more than this thread. It has been proven that mining can still be done without fossil fuels.
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
The discussion seems to have missed the question. If the intent was to ask, if we can build a turbine AND GENERATOR, the the debate was on target.
As earlier posters noted, the Dutch did build windmills without fossil fuels. They also had the good sense to use the power DIRECTLY, without converting it from mechanical energy to some other form, that entail at least modest efficiency losses, and gross complications as seen in this discussion. Their windmills did a fine job of providing mechanical power, primarily to pump water, a task that is not based on a timed demand.
Of course, the Dutch had the good fortune to have never been told that they must first make electricity, then make a high tech pump and electric motor, and smelt steel for pipes, and whatever else we do now. They just PUMPED WATER. An excellent example of appropriate technology, like the Romans grinding grain with water wheel powered mills.
A bit of creative thinking can find other applications for direct use of mechanical power. I just finished making some wood repair parts for a 150 year old water mill that shelled corn, ground meal and flour, sifted flour, then augered it into bins. No metal in the place, just wood and stone.
I'm seeing a lot of brainpower aimed at trying to maintain the status quo, but Einstein said, you can't solve a problem (like fossil fuel depletion) with the same thinking that got you into it. I think it's time to try some new approaches, and maybe some old ones, to our problems. At this stage of the game, we can't afford very many false starts before we squander too many resources. Time for a lot of hard thinking, I believe.
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
If you know how to fabricate you could build yourself a nicelittle unit I am sure. But then at what price, at what ROI? Wind is a part of the future just as it has been a part of the past. Its just that it cannot sustain a global market, regional maybe, but most likely you will see locallized power generation with windmills in certain areas in the future. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
patience wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of brainpower aimed at trying to maintain the status quo, but Einstein said, you can't solve a problem (like fossil fuel depletion) with the same thinking that got you into it.
You can if the "problem" is deliberate. Kinda like hitting yourself over the head with a 2x4, and easing up because if you don't the blood loss and swelling will stop you completely. _________________
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
yesplease,
Yeah! There's no doubt that enough pain will motivate us to do differently. I'm just lobbying to focus our efforts at practical things that transition us to the future. We can't define the future perfectly, but we know the general direction. It's clear that EROEI needs to be our guide, so I want to seek answers based on that. I think we can find some of those answers staring us in the face, in history.
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
patience wrote:
yesplease,
Yeah! There's no doubt that enough pain will motivate us to do differently. I'm just lobbying to focus our efforts at practical things that transition us to the future. We can't define the future perfectly, but we know the general direction. It's clear that EROEI needs to be our guide
Thats not clear at all. Its of some importance at low ratios, and of negligible importance at high ratios; Profitablility, scalability, externalities and the like are all more important.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6497 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu
A post from another thread:
There is a foundry still standing in the California foothills that built some of the first hydroelectric generators using hydro-power, wooden dies and old horseshoes for raw material in the 1850's.
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