How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
How do you make public policy to address the differences between the top 0.1% and the bottom 99.9% when capital is mobile?
Judging from that time scale the USA is still just approaching income inequality associated with the early 1900s. But in the mean time standards of living for everyone in America have risen dramatically.
Quote:
Further, in 1972-91, living standards were rising twice as fast as conventionally measured. Costa also finds that the primary beneficiaries of these newly measured gains in per capita total expenditures in both these periods were lower income households.
Of course, if anyone has better data or a graph I would like to see it? Thanks.
If you cannot stop the super wealthy from accumulating more wealth - next to impossible and should not be done - then good public policy is to make sure 'everyone else' is relatively better off if that can be realistically achieved.
I would not hold EdF up as an example of anything, but French exceptionalism. I certainly would not hold it up as an example of corporate transparency or good value for the French taxpayer or their power consumers.
They have resisted all attempts to open the French power market or divest of their assets inline with EU competition and EU wide power regulation. They are not good corporate citizens. And their dominant position is protected by an interventionalist French government that promotes national champions over genuine competition by blocking any foreign take-overs or mergers. GdF, Areva and Suez all share these French characteristics with EdF. Needless to say one reason why France (and Italy) are falling behind German productivity! _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 224 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
LoneSnark wrote:
So, Newfie, a government entity has declared that insufficient resources are being made available to the government. What the hell would you expect them to say!?!?
Has a government entity ever, in the history of mankind, proclaimed that its work was done and should be disbanded?
LS, come on, read either my post or the report. I spoke of neither a "government entity" nor of "insufficient resources" in the context you imply.
The only "insufficient resource" alluded to would be the lack of natural gas. Or perhaps the ability to think and plan in the US.
This report is pretty much detailing the demise of our electric grid over the next decade. I suggested reading this in line with the stated topic "Not enough new power plants." It does convey valuable information which, in my opinion, should be viewed as the "best case scenario."
“It is wiser to find out than to suppose” - Mark Twain
NERC’s mission is to improve the reliability and security of the bulk power system in North America. To achieve that, NERC develops and enforces reliability standards; monitors the bulk power system; assesses future adequacy; audits owners, operators, and users for preparedness; and educates and trains industry personnel. NERC is a self-regulatory organization that relies on the diverse and collective expertise of industry participants. As the Electric Reliability Organization, NERC is subject to audit by the U.S. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and governmental authorities in Canada. _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
Ok, Newfie, my bad. NERC is not a government entity, but a quazi-government entity. Big difference.
The point is, it answers to the people which gain resources and power from scaring the public. As such, when it writes reports designed to scare the public I get skeptical.
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
Great stats, starvid!
Back to the original topic of the thread--
Have you heard of global warming?
This isn't a "treehugger" thing--it's a matter of the future of the planet. If you don't give a hoot about that, say so. If you think AGW is made up, say so.
In fact what we need to do (or needed to do about 30 years ago) is shut down all the coal plants as soon as possible.
Utilities always project that need for their services is going to rise rapidly. (Or to paraphrase LS "Have you ever heard of a corporation that said that its services weren't important and that it should be closed down?")
Next question--Have you heard of the recession we're in and the depression we're entering?
What is that going to do to electricity demand?
Is sounds like your family member has drunk the corporate cool aid of what ever utility he works for.
We obviously have huge problems with our power infrastructure, but they mostly have to do with dirty sources of power, poor transmission abilities, and enormous waste at every level.
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 224 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
LS,
OK and I too am frequently skeptical.
HOWEVER..................I do not believe that this is the intent of this report. If it is then it is the worst report I have ever read. Quite frankly it reads just the opposite, try to reassure without creating panic and not outright lying.
You would have to read at least the summary to get the gist of what I am trying to covey.
The points I summarized are what I took out of the report after a couple of hours trudging. That is my "take away" minus their sugar. A sour pill.
I'll tell you what, you read the summary, about 20 pages and then tell me what you think it says. _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
US doesn't need any more new electricity capacity (not necessarily even renewing/replacement capacity at this scale).
The word is called:
Saving
90% of Americans should look it up in the dictionary, because they will have start learning in real life what it means.
Save energy, save fuels, save money.
You can't keep on spending forever what isn't there.
If US switched overt 100% to CFL lamps, cut down on house heating/cooling and turned off 50% of the advertisement lights during the night, this would reduce electricity need in spades and nobody would really suffer.
At least, not in the way if you get cascade blackouts in the next 10-15 years...
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Not enough new power plants
halcyon wrote:
If US switched overt 100% to CFL lamps, cut down on house heating/cooling and turned off 50% of the advertisement lights during the night, this would reduce electricity need in spades and nobody would really suffer.
Until population growth (much of it from illegals) eats up all that saved capacity.
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
