Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12473 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
Well, we're not able to agree. And that's ok.
Intertribal warfare isn't "murder." There's anthropological evidence for my position as well. *shrug*
Bears are the main predator of bears, humans of humans. But there's no evidence bears use deliberate population control, and plenty of evidence humans do/did. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4267 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
I suspect that the discovery of the germ theory at about the same time we discovered fossil fuels (within a few decades anyway), was really a one-two punch to our long term survival, although it certainly didn't look that way at the time.
It was as if lifespan and consumption rates both exploded at the same time that the discovery of new lands was winding down.
In retrospect, it would be like the Australian aborigines all winning the lottery and having their lifespan doubled and expecting their old methods to still provide them with the necessary tools to live sustainably.
It's poignant that so many lottery winners find that life after the lottery is harder than they imagined.
It will likely be that way for us as a species when our fossil fuel lottery winnings begin to run out. _________________
Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 12390 Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
oowolf wrote:
I just read this over at link
How about a permanent link to this site devoted just to pictures of cute kittens as an antidote to all the doom? link
I don't know about the ruthlessness gene, but those kitties are really cute. I guess I don't have the ruthlessness gene. That must be why I preferred swimming to water polo. btw, speaking of water polo, what ever happened to I_Like_Plants? Last we heard he was down and out in Arizona. Before that he was down and out in California. I think he started down and out in Hawaii. I miss him calling me little richie rich. If only. . . _________________ Turn those Machines back On! - Don Ameche in Trading Places
Joined: Jun 06, 2005 Posts: 1272 Location: the place where smartasses dwell
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
_________________ It's the height of rudeness for the stretch polyester pants crowd to foist their tard version of Christ on talmudic scholars. But they don't get this, because they are, after all, extremely thick.----Threadbare
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
Ludi wrote:
I guess what I'm not sure about is, why is it so difficult to believe humans are/were capable of noticing changes in their surroundings and avoiding the worst effects of overuse?
These people weren't stupid, and they were very observant. They had to be or they would die.
Of course they noticed, which is why they migrated.
The problem as I see it is that that's the way we evolved, so that's the response we've got 'hardwired', so to speak. The real trouble isn't that we've overpopulated and are destroying our resource base; it's that we haven't got another planet handy...
Ludi wrote:
Intertribal warfare isn't "murder."
Excuse me?
Jared Diamond wrote:
In traditional New Guinea society, if a New Guinean happened to encounter an unfamiliar New Guinean while both were away from their respective villages, the two engaged in a long discussion of their relatives, in an attempt to establish some relationship and hence some reason why the two should not attempt to kill each other.
...
How can we account for the empirical observation that band or tribal organization just does not work for societies of hundreds of thousands of people, and that all existing large societies have complex centralized organization? We can cite at least four obvious reasons.
One reason is the problem of conflict between unrelated strangers. That problem grows astronomically as the number of people making up the society increases. Relationships within a band of 20 people involve only 190 two-person interactions (20 people times 19 divided by 2), but a band of 2,000 would have 1,999,000 dyads. Each of those dyads represents a potential time bomb that could explode in a murderous argument. Each murder in band and tribal societies usually leads to an attempted revenge killing, starting one more unending cycle of murder and counter murder that destabilizes the society.
In a band, where everyone is closely related to everyone else, people related simultaneously to both quarreling parties step in to mediate quarrels. In a tribe, where many people are still close relatives and everyone at least knows everybody else by name, mutual relatives and mutual friends mediate the quarrel. But once the threshold of "several hundred," below which everyone can know everyone else, has been crossed, increasing numbers of dyads become pairs of unrelated strangers. When strangers fight, few people present will be friends or relatives of both combatants, with self-interest in stopping the fight. Instead, many onlookers will be friends or relatives of only one combatant and will side with that person, escalating the two-person fight into a general brawl. Hence a large society that continues to leave conflict resolution to all of its members is guaranteed to blow up.That factor alone would explain why societies of thousands can exist only if they develop centralized authority to monopolize force and resolve conflicts.
(emphasis mine)
As I noted earlier, this is exactly the same kind of behavior seen in street gangs. They are authentic modern band/tribal cultures. _________________ "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1323 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
eastbay wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Yes, I expect people to behave in a less tolerant manner under conditions of scarcity. This doesn't mean they will immediately start killing and eating each other, though. It just means they will (probably) be more suspicious especially of people they don't know. Strangers won't be tolerated as well in the future, I expect. In communities made up mostly of strangers, such as most cities and suburbs, this will probably cause conflict.
It is very much in our nature to be territorial and suspicious of strangers. This is how humans evolved.
There are also periods of great scarcity where things didn't decay into cannibalism and widespread horror such as in the USA during the 1930's.
May be the scarcity wasn't great enough, ever thought of that?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4267 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
Pretorian wrote:
eastbay wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Yes, I expect people to behave in a less tolerant manner under conditions of scarcity. This doesn't mean they will immediately start killing and eating each other, though. It just means they will (probably) be more suspicious especially of people they don't know. Strangers won't be tolerated as well in the future, I expect. In communities made up mostly of strangers, such as most cities and suburbs, this will probably cause conflict.
It is very much in our nature to be territorial and suspicious of strangers. This is how humans evolved.
There are also periods of great scarcity where things didn't decay into cannibalism and widespread horror such as in the USA during the 1930's.
May be the scarcity wasn't great enough, ever thought of that?
It's possible, too, that the same amount of scarcity imposed upon a population less accustomed to getting by on less could have different consequences.
Society was more segregated back then too. I wonder how durable the veneer of integration would be in an extended period of scarcity.
OTOH, there are also a lot more scraps of luxury to salvage today than there was back then, so there would be more meat on the bone for the picking.
The Hurricane Katrina debacle was probably a disturbing 1/1000 model of the way things might unfold.
It's hard to say what would/will happen. _________________
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4369 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
Pretorian wrote:
eastbay wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Yes, I expect people to behave in a less tolerant manner under conditions of scarcity. This doesn't mean they will immediately start killing and eating each other, though. It just means they will (probably) be more suspicious especially of people they don't know. Strangers won't be tolerated as well in the future, I expect. In communities made up mostly of strangers, such as most cities and suburbs, this will probably cause conflict.
It is very much in our nature to be territorial and suspicious of strangers. This is how humans evolved.
There are also periods of great scarcity where things didn't decay into cannibalism and widespread horror such as in the USA during the 1930's.
May be the scarcity wasn't great enough, ever thought of that?
Of course. It's fairly obvious. But it was as bad as things ever got for North America. Few actually starved which speaks to relative plenty even though we tend to generally view it as a period of great hardship. I suppose compared to what will be unfolding it will be seen as a fairly mild economic downturn.
There was also less diversity among the population during that period. When this downturn comes there will be the added dynamic of sectarianism which will definitely add gas to the fire. It ain't gonna be pretty at all. _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: split hate
Well posted golem, neverthelss, hold your arms for the war to come. The abuse of catholicism has been "disarmed" by Marin Luther (born 1483). As a result we have relgious mess to deal with, especially in the US of A nowadays, where everyone is sort of left to their own deivces.
After all, the most disturbing aspect of self declared newcommers to religion is the suggested "you have to believe in it" aspect. Thruth is, nobody needs to "believe" in anything.
Once you exculde this hindrance maneuving live is a play!
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3646 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Why All The Hate?
TWilliam wrote:
As I noted earlier, this is exactly the same kind of behavior seen in street gangs. They are authentic modern band/tribal cultures.
Wow, I'm going to have to read Jared Diamond now. That's some good sh*t. _________________ Peak oil is sort of like a mental Everlasting Gobstopper, except it tastes like ass and you can't get it out of your mouth.
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