Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Our main concern about rifles is we have close neighbors and their livestock. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 640 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
ALBY wrote:
there is only one gauge of shotgun. the 12 gauge. the ammo is universal. there is 12 gauge ammo nearly everywhere. you'll always be abloe to get it. even if tshtf.
need a light kicking gun, shoot handicap trap loads. needs to whomp some geese ? 3.5 in magnum.
20 gauge is for small women and kids.
While I agree on the first part that the 12ga is a near universal shell, I disagree on the 2nd. That is an unreasonable and unfair determination for 20ga.
I would consider a .410 singleshot shotgun. You can also use .45 long for deer and the .410 does not grind small game up as finely as the 12ga.
On the other hand, a 22 hornet is a pretty nice altrnative for deer and small game of any kind (if it's not on the wing). _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 640 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
Our main concern about rifles is we have close neighbors and their livestock.
Then go for the .22LR as mentioned abpve. It's the most universal survival hunting gun on earth and the shells are very inexpensive. I prefer a Ruger 10/22 but I know there are others who go for the match grade rifles. That of course puts me squarely into the "I can own 5 of mine for 1 of yours" camp.
It's also a lot quieter, but it does require you to be a decent shot. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
jlw61 wrote:
Then go for the .22LR as mentioned abpve. It's the most universal survival hunting gun on earth and the shells are very inexpensive.
jlw61 have you ever taken a deer with a .22LR? If so, how many have you injured while trying to take one with a .22LR?
Unless you are fairly close (less than 50 yards) and an excellent shot it can be a very difficult shot especially if you are hunting bucks due to the fact that the antlers can deflect the bullet if you are shooting while the deer is facing you.
I agree you can kill a deer with a .22LR with a perfectly placed shot but I would never advise anyone to shot deer with that small of a caliber especially someone who doesn't hunt on a regular basis.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Remember most if not all states have a minimum caliber for hunting big-game. They do this because a larger caliber obviously has more knock-down power and is more likely to kill the animal rather than wound it.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
joeltrout, milspec .223 (5.56x45), even though FMJ, actually fragments on impact within a reasonable distance (100-200 yards). The wound channel can be quite devastating, even more so than a soft point bullet. Check out the "Ammo Oracle" for lots of info if you're interested.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
bobaloo wrote:
joeltrout, milspec .223 (5.56x45), even though FMJ, actually fragments on impact within a reasonable distance (100-200 yards). The wound channel can be quite devastating, even more so than a soft point bullet. Check out the "Ammo Oracle" for lots of info if you're interested.
Thanks, I am not familiar with the Ammo Oracle so I will google it.
We located the bullet inside the cavity and it had not fragmented at all. Though this might be an unusual circumstance because we do not use FMJ for hunting so I don't know what usually happens to the bullet inside a body cavity. My brother was using military ammo that my grandfather had bought somewhere.
We typically only use soft-point bullets or occasionally hollow-point bullets for hunting.
Joined: Sep 02, 2004 Posts: 580 Location: Not tellin' anymore
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
What gauge shotgun would you recommend for a lightly-built man with a bad arm?
Game will be squirrels and small deer, in general.
Ludi,
You didn't mention if he shoots. A good shot won't hafta worry about missin' as often as some - percentages.
First check the state law on gauges for deer hunting. Some only go as low as 20 ga.
Second take in consideration the shooter. Can they hit a target and how far out? How far is anticipated? Shotguns typically are close range guns.
Third is purpose. Hunting only, defense or combo? This is a very big determiner.
Now as to suggestions:
Most gun makers have "Youth" models. Smaller basic model, same ammo loads. 'Nuff said there.
Most gun makers have "Combo Guns" - a shogun/rifle with a breech lock load (breaks open like old timey shotguns). .410 to 12 ga, .22 to .45 black powder. Some the barrels are swapped, some are over/under (M6 USAF Survival Rifle/Springfield M6 Scout)
Light weight Gauges/calibers:
.22 - Yes a .22 lr will kill a deer. Gotta be a "great shot" and relativelly close to target. Its a light load, the wind will move it. A .22 magnum is better, but still gotta be a "great shot" and close. Otherwise you gotta be a great runner/tracker or the meat is lost and the coyotes feast.
.410/67 ga. - Yes a .410 slug will kill a deer. Gotta have rifled barrel, a decent round (1/4oz, 3" slug) and still be a pretty good shot. With other rounds available, it covers small game and maybe deer.
.20 - Typically the only legally used shotgun for deer and then only slugs - again requiring a rifled barrel and a decent round and again still be a pretty good shot.
Still goes back to Practice, Practice, Practice. A spreading ammo shotgun doesn't make up for abilityto hunt or shoot - two very different things.
Alternatives:
Buddy up with a hunter and make mutually beneficial arrangements.
Get an air rifle for small game or learn about live traps/snares.
Do what someone else suggested here and raise rabbits. THEN trade with the hunter - saves them bullets and the skins have no holes.
As for the defense, this thread is eat up with suggestions. For inside the house defense, pump shogun in .410/20 ga. For Zombie hordes, call in the Marines or say your prayers. Without heavy weapons, arty or air support, your best bet is to "run away".
"He who lives to run away, lives to fight another day!"
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi;
Have you considered a gas/recoil operated 12ga? These tend to be light and all you have to do is hold on and pull the trigger. Automatics, as they are also called, tend to have less recoil as well.
I have 2 Stoegers and they are great guns for the money. The ONLY time they've ever jammed was on a COLD Argentine morning after they were caked full of residue from very cheap Argentine powder. With better powder like we find in shells here in the states they'll just shoot and shoot.
If you want the most reliable auto 12ga get a Benelli.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I just thought I'd give you an update on our gun situation.
As you may recall, my wife was very anti-gun. After getting a 20 gauge double barreled shotgun she, erm, grew to enjoy it. Now she's saying that it's hers. That hurts (given I had to be rather ingenious to get hold of it).
So, this weekend, when I get back to La Belle France I intend joining a local gun club. Hopefully, six months down the line I can get myself some serious hardware. I'll let her keep the shotgun _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I thought I would pass this along. I was cruising the websites of the old wholesalers I used to buy from when I had a collectors license, or need some ammo.
If you need a pistol, Aim Surplus has Sig Sauer P225/P6 pistols (which were surplussed from the German police) for $260. This is a STEAL. Sig Sauer makes one of the most durable pistols in the world, along with HK. Their round count and functional life should exceed 50K rounds easily. The pistols will be slightly used but will be in excellent functional condition. I've bought from AIM for about 8 years now and know them to be a very reputable organization. I always like to pass along deals like this. I don't know how long this link will be active and they will probably sell out in days/couple of weeks.
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I'll second the good words on Sig Sauer from GeoJAP. I carry a Sig all the time. We have a few of them in different calibers and models and none of them have ever failed. I carry a p232 around the house and in the yard (we live in the boonies turn left). The p239 is my nightstand gun and concealed carry gun in the winter. They are easy to take down and they function flawlessly. For the ladies ... the LadyFist holster by Fist is a super holster.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I just got back from the range. I put twenty five rounds through my Mosin-Nagant rifle and carbine. The ammunition was manufactured in 1950 in Russia. It worked flawlessly. Those that think they can choke off the flow of guns by eliminating ammunition imports have a long wait before this stuff becomes inert.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Cloud9 wrote:
I just got back from the range. I put twenty five rounds through my Mosin-Nagant rifle and carbine. The ammunition was manufactured in 1950 in Russia. It worked flawlessly. Those that think they can choke off the flow of guns by eliminating ammunition imports have a long wait before this stuff becomes inert.
Non corrosive I hope, or you need to clean the gun immediately after shooting. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
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