Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 640 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Misguided national priorties?
centralstump wrote:
This can change:
1. Nationalize Health Care
2. Enforce Anti-Trust Laws
3. Consumption tax based on distance an item travels
4. Force Corporations to pay a surcharge to ship jobs overseas.
We might get a country back that our parents would recognize. Cause I do not like this one.
I'm sorry, but the fact that the government controls most of the payments going to the health care system is one of the main problems with the health care system. The government has no business in health care other than to make sure people are not getting defrauded or having their rights violated.
The problems with corporations can be quickly solved by removing the rights corporations have been given over the past decades and preventing any form of corporate welfare. Corporations should also not have to pay taxes outside, except perhaps, consumption or property taxes.
There already is a tax on how far an item travels, it's called fuel costs. Part of the problem with that though is that many of the costs are hidden by government laws and activities. A railroad pays property taxes for the land it uses, but a truck gets to use roads that are paid for by your taxes.
Government does two things really well, spend money and project power; unfortunately it seldom does it wisely. When government tries to do anything other than these two specialties, it makes an even bigger mess of things. Health care, welfare and corporations are three prime examples of the mess they've made. I can name many others. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Misguided national priorties?
The_Toecutter wrote:
Quote:
I realized that it was big business that produced the war goods that allowed the USA to defeat the tyranny of Hitler during WW II.
It was big business who also aided Hitler in production of weapons and munitions, supported him throught WWII, and at least in part built the camps.
Big business supported both sides and helped spur a war because it was profitable to do so.
Business like science is an amoral tool that it can be used to do good or bad things. For example a hammer is just an inanimate object, a tool that in the hands of a character out of a horror picture or a mob hit man character can be used to cause great harm (like bashing a person's head), like wise a skilled carpenter can use a hammer in conjunction with other tools of the trade to build great pieces of furnature, or stunning homes.
It's the skill and intent of the human being that determines how a tool such as a business is used. The sad fact of the matter is, too many people in business and for that matter people in the general public only look at the short term gains, not at the long term consequences of their actions (which IMHO is the biggest problem that needs to be done in order to address the big issues).
For example, lets look at the oil industry for example, in order to make oil useable, one needs to pump it out of the ground (in the case of light sweet crude), send it to a refinery so the crude can be cracked to produce various distillates (diesel, gas, etc.). But from basics physics which states energy is conservative, this means that in the process of distillating various useful products from raw crude, there is always going to be some useless by products (pollution).
As it stands oil and the general public are only looking at the short term gains (the integrated big oil companies, what to sell as much of the product as they can at the lowest price, and the public wants to pay as little as possible at the pump). The price no one want to account for is pollution, which if the oil companies dumped all their crap into the air and into the water (in or near prime farm land), one would see that once productive farm land is inundated with pollution, food production will decline. The american public in love with there large cars such as SUVs, don't want high gas prices.In the end, very few people step back and look at the various cause and effect events.
My point being is if people and business took the long view and looked at something other than the short term bottom line and instant gratification, business could develope various interesting technologies that could be more sustainable and profitable.
vampyregirl wrote:
The_Toecutter wrote:
Quote:
I realized that it was big business that produced the war goods that allowed the USA to defeat the tyranny of Hitler during WW II.
It was big business who also aided Hitler in production of weapons and munitions, supported him throught WWII, and at least in part built the camps.
Big business supported both sides and helped spur a war because it was profitable to do so.
WW@ was not profitable for Germany or Japan. Both nations were ruined economically by the war. It wasn't profitable for Britain either. They suffered economic dislocation as a result of the war which lead to the liquidation of the British empire.
America benefited from both world wars because there was no fighting on American soil. Thats the only reason.
Also before America got directly involved in the war (before Pearl Harbor) they were heavily supplying the war effort against Hitler. Did they do that only for money? I don't think so
Actually WW II might be considered good for business in Japan and German in the long run if you consider the effect of "constructive-destruction."
After WW II, one of the most important policies I looked at while taking various poli-sci classes was the Marshall Plan
basically, we know there was utter distruction in germany and japan during WW II. If ya look back in history one of the reasons WW II started was because hitler, a corporal during WW I was PO (pissied off), at the utter distruction of german during ww I and that german had to pay the allies (france and england) war reparations. Did you know that after hitler invaded france, he made the french sign a surrender treaty the the same rail road car that germans had to sign their WW I surrender treaty....
anyway the point to all this is, in order to avoid another war with german and japan, the long sighed political leaders back then, decided that the best way to avoid future wars with germany and japan was to make sure their local businesses were rebuilt (and its no mistake that today the reason germany and japan are world economic powers is because the economies/business were rebuilt and incorporated positive aspects of US business practices).
IHMO one reason the USA no longer is growing as fast as it once did, is because too many individual in the USA are uncomfortable with adapting forward looking business strategies from abroad. For example it may surprise you that the emerates have a huge investment in green technology, while politicians, business and many in the general public do not see a benefit in accepting the science that the earth is indeed warming up, that there will be an end to cheap oil, etc.
Instead it seems there is a mentaility that we (americans) like the status quo, don't think very much of anything not invented here, etc. and those two issues of national pride will need to be over come if the united states want to keep its place as a super power (basically it boils down to "adapt or die!"). _________________ "I'm 100% sure that unsustainable conspicuous consumption of natural basic resources will eventually lead to a proverbial hell on earth for those people who get stuck with the mismanagement mess of mankind not being stewards of the environment!"
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Misguided national priorties?
azreal60 wrote:
Of course our national priority's are currently misguided. Almost 81 percent of America according to polls knows that.
What I find interesting is your lack of like for people who can be good at their jobs, specifically in a leadership capacity. I think it's almost a President Bush thing. You have had almost 8 years of a crappy leader. Hence, you now associate leader with moron. You then compare Barak Obama to George Bush. Which is funny, because if anyone I know has problems speaking, it's Bush.
I think your simply burnt out. Things look alot different with competant leadership for a while.
I'm not in anyway saying our leaders aren't setting the wrong policy. I personally am going to be writing a heck of a lot of letters to Barak Obama to get him on a better energy policy. But of all the choices I've seen, he certainly gives the best ideas so far.
In short, our problems aren't that our leaders are too good at public speaking. It's that, currently, our leadership is using their meager public speaking skills on the wrong national priorities. Get engaged, and make sure the next set of leaders doesn't.
Nope, I'm not burnt out (except from doing my taxes)!
I never did think very much of president bush (jr), to me he always seems like a "religious" man in name only, and akin to those "religious" wack jobs who issue fatwas and live in caves, basically I think they are two side of the same bad coin.
During the 2000 election year, I remember that there were lots of news media reports that people interviewed said they felt more comfortable with bush, because he repersented a good old boy from texas that they could have a beer with, while gore was a policy wonk with a stick up his ass (and those public perceptions sadly are how many people do select a person for office).
Basically I'm more of a liberal elite kind of individual (minus the stick up the ass), so I've always looked at president bush and his follower, always as morons.
As time went on after the 2000 and 2004 elections, I have a feeling that this president and his supporters will go down in history as being the idiots who caused the USA to fall from superpower status.
I've managed to take some interesting road trips (like I can say I knew about the "stans," been there, done that, a few years before 9/11) and knew right off the bat that the bush administration claim that sadam a secular dictator would never trust a religious wack job like bin laden. Then there is the history of the region, like when the british and russians played the "great game" in that part of the world. So from a military stand point, I never did think much of "gun ho" politics or individuals who thought that it was possible to win a war in the region, because of the long history in the region always suggests that its an impossible region to influence by outsiders (there just isn't enought man power, money or national will power) to win over hearts and minds of people in that region.
The battle for hearts and minds would be akin to obama, winning 95% of the vote of small town religious gun nuts in the state of pennsylvania.
Which reminds me why I started this thread in the first place. Basically I was lamenting the election process, where the media and general public have the candidates run the public humiliation gauntlet in order to try and win over the hearts and minds (and votes), of a typical fat, dumb and (un)happy american voter (how that's do I sound like a liberal elite kind of individual????
Basically I just had to "rant" after watching a clip of a black man who could not bowl on the daily show, and thinking so this is what american politics has become (it's akin to a bad japanese game show where contestants see how much crap and embarrassing public statements they can get by the american public in order to win the white house).
So far from this political silly season I've learned that "black men can't bowl" I'm also assuming that since obama, is half white because of his mother "that he can't jump!" although he does appear to have a slim body type for basket ball (does not look like he is american cause there is no meat or extra fat on him that is typical of 2/3 of americans).
As far as hillary, I can say she does not look at that comfortable at a bar downing a beer or a shot (that was a video clip on last night's daily show), and especially loved the clip they showed where hillary at some event after the obama comment about bitter people in small towns turning to guns and religion, said something to the effect that when she was a little girl her grand dad taught her how to shoot, how she respects guns and the importans of going to church, then in another clip ya see a clip of hillary being asked by a reporter "when was the last time you shot and when was the last time she went to church" and here response was I don't think those things matter (right after she was trying to pander to the small town gun nuts/bible thumpers).
getting back to the point about me being "burnt out" or "bitter" basically I don't think so, cause I don't live in a small town, made enough money in 2007 so I don't qualify for "economic stimulus payments" of up to $600 ($1200 for married filing jointly) that were approved by Congress in February, but coincidentally I guess I might be considered "bitter" cause this afternoon I did stop by the local gun discount mart
to pick up a bottle of Hoppe's gun cleaning fluid....
As far as issues I wish politicians found a way to entertain and educate me about big picture things, like the environment, energy issues, how they are going to address the 64 trillion dollar question of entitlements such as social security, medicare and medicade....
I've pretty much voted green, even though I'm registered as an independet here in california, because I pretty much tend to agree with the general premise of the green party platform that the environment should be of prime concern.
I'm not an activist in "green" party politics, cause I don't ascribe gaia hypothesis because I don't think there are "spirits" in the woods or in the mountains, to me that is as strange as believing that a burning bush talked to people and commanded them to follow "gods" rules. Basically conservation of natural resources, which entails caring for the environment should be national priority, cause once that guide line is established, it takes care of several other issues (for example if that was the main stream mindset of the general public, politicians and business, then it would be possible to develop policy and various businesses around "green" capitalist ideas).
Basically, 80% of the polls say we are heading in the wrong direction, but there was no one presidential candate telling the american public the truth which is in order to change that poll so that it states that 80% of the public thinks we are heading in the right direction, requires people and political leaders to acknowledge and understand the big problems of the environment, of which "peak oil" plays an integral part, and fiscal/economic policy such as how to clean up the mess of mismanagemnt of natural resources while balancing how to pay for the social contract of social security, etc.... _________________ "I'm 100% sure that unsustainable conspicuous consumption of natural basic resources will eventually lead to a proverbial hell on earth for those people who get stuck with the mismanagement mess of mankind not being stewards of the environment!"
Last edited by phaster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6374 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: Re: Misguided national priorties?
phaster wrote:
I have disagree with the importants of guns and any second amendment issue when it comes to presidential issues.
You may not care about the Bill of Rights or the other freedoms and constraints on government ennumerated in the US Constitution, but other folks do.
The president plays a large role in constitutional issues, both through his personal leadership and through his appointments to the US Supreme Court. It is entirely reasonable for basic constitutional issues to be part of the presidential campaign.
personally I think we as a whole are much better off than our parents because new knowledge and technology exists to solve complex issues. You mentioned the global world economy has set the stage for big business to run things. Small business does not stand a chance. I kinda think there are many opportunites in small business if one realizes that business as usual sectors "retail" for consumer goods example is unsustainable, much like "subprime" loans to buy real estate as we have seen over the past few months in the news, was unsustainable.
Entreprenuership as I see it isn't dead here in the good old USA, its just that its undergoing dramatic changes in terms of what what is going to make it big, for example you mention problems in healthcare. With an aging US demographic, I think there is some economic opportunity in that field (as a matter of fact I just picked up a friend at the airport last weekend who needed a ride back home, because he was out of town doing some work for a start medical start up).
Don't know if ya caught last night's front line which looked at "Universal Health Care Systems In Five Capitalist Countries"
but I did think it was interesting and some what telling that its possible to get better health care for less money, if american society as a whole had a slightly different mindset.
centralstump wrote:
phaster wrote:
[RANT ON!!!!!]
To me it seems what needs to be done in the country, is blue collar workers should set their sights higher and look at a Harvard education as a good thing. This country became a super power because educated individuals, had the freedom to start various businesses which in turn provided employment and allowed people to work their way the social/economic ladder.
[RANT OFF]
This is the problem, in a nutshell, but you are blaming the wrong people.
I have started a business . .and I have failed.
Why?
1. Healthcare costs - Only the largest companies can afford to pay health bene's.
2. Input Costs - It is near impossible for a small business in today's environment to get the kind of prices large corporations can get.
3. Employment costs - Currently, we are seeing the biggest arbitrage in the history of the world. Corporations can pay one group pennys(overseas workforce) to sell to another group(uhm . . us) for dollars.
The global world economy has set the stage for big business to run things. Small business does not stand a chance.
A Small Retail Business? - - - yeah, right.
How 'bout a specialty store, you might ask. Even specialty stores are screwed. Wall Mart takes all of the high volume items and leaves the low volume items for you.
We are now a country designed to promote corporate goals. Those corporated goals are not just to make a profit. They are to make as big a profit as they can in any way they can. The way they can do it is to change the rules to lean the playing field toward them.
It has been a slow erosion of the goals of a country, "of, for, and by the people." An EPA rule here, and a Tax rule there, and pretty soon all rules slant the playing field toward big business. It is now to the point where we no longer care about entreprenuership. Inovation . .bleh! We are told all of this is to keep us "competitive." I do not want to be "competitive." I want to be America.
This can change:
1. Nationalize Health Care
2. Enforce Anti-Trust Laws
3. Consumption tax based on distance an item travels
4. Force Corporations to pay a surcharge to ship jobs overseas.
We might get a country back that our parents would recognize. Cause I do not like this one.
_________________ "I'm 100% sure that unsustainable conspicuous consumption of natural basic resources will eventually lead to a proverbial hell on earth for those people who get stuck with the mismanagement mess of mankind not being stewards of the environment!"
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