Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 610 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
I'll avoid any theological arguements on my part, please defer to C.S. Lewis. Historically, such as the plague years in Europe, the authority of the church was challenged but folks showed up anyway. Many Christians (and others) thought those to be "End Times". Many Christians (and others) will think post peak will be the "End Times" also. And many will look upon those folks with laughter and ridicule. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
yes freedom, on the whole, is a God given right.
1. in my opinion, christians don't have an obligation to carry arms but they do have the freedom and the right to. No where in the bible does it say you can't defend your family with weapons whether those weapons be firearms or hockey sticks.
2. no, example a christian mayor/firefighter who uses his/her authority to restrict free movement to a disaster area/fire etc is not a 'sinner'.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Quote:
It means everyone will have to make their choices when/if said situation arises.
Jack also asked for the "optimal response" and I am still wondering what that is?
Ok God is soverign, what would he have that family do? God has an opinion about sex, no banging outside of marriage. I would hope he has an opinion about whether or not we should kill someone?
Does Jesus have anything to add on this issue?
Quote:
According to the Bible he has all the answers, so according to many Christians we don't need to get all uptight about such things.
Not get uptight about ethics? I would think that orthopraxy should be a very important issue, more important than much of anything?
Quote:
Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
-Jesus
Though shalt not kill is the answer. And yet the punishment for those who do should also be death according to the Law. Christianity is about the New Covenant in Christ's blood and not the Old Covenant in which the blood of animals was sprinkled. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Though shalt not kill is the answer.
Are you suggesting we are supposed to LOVE the zombies to death? Will this work before they can spear us and take our stockpiles of gold, guns and MRE's? _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Jack wrote:
And then...a bit of whimsy. I seem to remember something to the effect that the next time the Earth was destroyed it would be with fire. Most interpretations have some gigantic, supernatural event that wipes the slate clean. But what if "destroyed by fire" really means destroyed by the carbon emissions resulting from a great many fires? Including the ones at the power station that generates electricity for my computer. Including my car. Including all the fire-based energy generation of our society.
One comes also to the issue of "...it those days had not been cut short, all flesh would have perished." (Correct?) So - could that mean that, without a breakdown in the existing growth paradigm, we would transform the planet into something not suitable for life?
I am not simply cherry picking your post. But yes, many Christians and it seems more than formerly believe that the seals are being opened right now and that climate change and fossil fuels play a role. I knew a young pastor many years ago who pointed me to this verse
'He made him ride on the high places of the earth, and he ate the produce of the field; And He made him drink honey from the rock, and oil from the flinty rock.' Deuteronomy 32:13
He said God had showed him and his friend that the end times would be all about oil. That was 18 years ago. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
KillTheHumans wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Though shalt not kill is the answer.
Are you suggesting we are supposed to LOVE the zombies to death? Will this work before they can spear us and take our stockpiles of gold, guns and MRE's?
I think that was the moral behind George Romero's Land of the Dead.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
wisconsin_cur wrote:
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.' Revelation 13:10
Quote:
Does this mean that it is ok to kill the home invaders or that the it is ok to be killed by them? Or perhaps whatever the end result is, is ok?
Welcome Gandalf, you picked to great place to battle principalities and powers.
One thing to remember about Wisconsin_Cur - He is a self titled "Post Modern" Christian, I am not sure what that means, but he is opposed to any sense of absolute truth. Debating/Discussion with him will lead to frustration, because he has a semblance of Christianity but opposes it's absolute truth. His questions are leading and offensive, and he is clearly ashamed of the Gospel.
I am vey well known in these forums for being "judgmental" "mean spirited" "self-righteous" etc. All because I proclaim the biblical message of salvation. I am on record numerous times as stating there can be no such thing as a "Self-Righteous" Christian, they are diametrically opposed...But welcome - The Birth Pangs are beginning to hit and there will be many whose hopes and dreams are dashed and hopefully will see a future and a hope for mankind that is not of this world as Jeremiah spoke to the Israelites in Jeremiah 29:11.
Last edited by clueless on Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
People facing peak oil are going to need to hear the gospel and the issues raised by peak oil can be used by the Lord to bring people to a saving knowledge of Christ. I do not feel like I own this thread, but I would like to see it develop into something like an internet peak oil chapel. That of course is in the Lord's hands, and He has also left that up to the mods, who could delete the thread, but I doubt they will. A little bit of the Good Word can't hurt in these troubled times.
Rejoice brothers and sisters, your reward is in heaven!
Well not for you as you have already taken the "mark of the beast." Oh yes, yes you have. After all, what is the one single thing that no man can buy or trade without using these days? It's petroleum or petro-dollars.
Petroleum also fits the description of "that which was, but no longer is, but still is" which is how the Bible describes the "beast." In this case, petroleum was once organic living matter, but no longer is alive, but still lives on as fossil fuels.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Jack wrote:
Very well. A serious question, then.
Let us suppose that a Christian family finds itself in a post-peak environment. Due to reduced food supplies, the die-off has begun in earnest. The neighbors are starving, in a literal and actual sense.
The hypothetical family has supplies, and is surviving nicely.
What do you regard as their optimal course of action?
Alternative scenario.
The aforementioned family is sitting at home, reading books. Two individuals begin attempting to force entry into the house. The family is well armed.
What do you regard as the optimal course of action?
Assuming the miscreants are not immediately terminated, at what point (if any) does the family initiate use of deadly force?
Jack - these are very good and legitimate questions. But the reality is we are fundamentally flawed creatures (all of us - Christians and non-Christians) and are all prone to doing things our own way out of selfishness. The flesh wars against the spirit and even Christians (perhaps even more so) are going to act foolishly. It is impossible to know how I would or will act when it comes to protecting and providing for my family in the face of extreme adversity - pray I will put others first and share what I have, but I am a flawed human being.
I do not believe it would be necessarily wrong for a person to defend with force his family, but going on a killing rampage as many here are probably envisioning is obviously wrong.
In regards to how Christians should react in this scenario - We are to be gracious and caring, willing to put others first in an attempt to Glorify our Gracious Father in Heaven. Will that happen in every case ? Most likely not, but that is what we should strive to accomplish.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Well not for you as you have already taken the "mark of the beast." Oh yes, yes you have. After all, what is the one single thing that no man can buy or trade without using these days? It's petroleum or petro-dollars.
Petroleum also fits the description of "that which was, but no longer is, but still is" which is how the Bible describes the "beast." In this case, petroleum was once organic living matter, but no longer is alive, but still lives on as fossil fuels.
So have fun in hell my friend!
Oh and by the way - Matt is our resident Bible Critic ! Sorry Matt, the petrodollar may be a component of the "Mark of the Beast", but cannot be the final implementation of it, there are still too many rougue currencies out there. But look out for the IMF, they have been pushing some intersting agendas these days.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Though shalt not kill is the answer. And yet the punishment for those who do should also be death according to the Law. Christianity is about the New Covenant in Christ's blood and not the Old Covenant in which the blood of animals was sprinkled.
But is it? Yes, I am aware that the traditional King James version makes such a statement. But it is my understanding that the original Hebrew version was different - and the words would be more accurately translated as "Thou shalt not murder."
Now murder is rather different than killing. If a hypothetical bad guy comes at me, swinging a machete and snarling, and I terminate him, then I would certainly be killing - but not murdering.
And as long as one brings up the New Covenant, one faces an even more interesting issue. If one subscribes to the theory of original sin, then everyone is a sinner, and hence needs salvation. That salvation is available from only one source. So - could one not commit murder and claim salvation? It appears to me that one could. Of course, "faith without works is dead", but our hypothetical murderer might be kind, generous, and a fine person in every other way. An example might be the BTK killer, who was (again, as I recall) a church deacon on Sunday, and a serial killer at other times. I can see an argument that even the worst sinner could easily (??) claim salvation, under existing Christian doctrine. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
In regards to how Christians should react in this scenario - We are to be gracious and caring, willing to put others first in an attempt to Glorify our Gracious Father in Heaven. Will that happen in every case ? Most likely not, but that is what we should strive to accomplish.
And the world would surely be a better place if more people made a genuine effort in this direction. But please see my preceding post, with regard to salvation and falling short. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
And as long as one brings up the New Covenant, one faces an even more interesting issue. If one subscribes to the theory of original sin, then everyone is a sinner, and hence needs salvation. That salvation is available from only one source. So - could one not commit murder and claim salvation? It appears to me that one could. Of course, "faith without works is dead", but our hypothetical murderer might be kind, generous, and a fine person in every other way. An example might be the BTK killer, who was (again, as I recall) a church deacon on Sunday, and a serial killer at other times. I can see an argument that even the worst sinner could easily (??) claim salvation, under existing Christian doctrine.
Paul arguably was one of the worst "murderers" of his day, most likely worse than Jeffery Dahmer who was a death row convert. The Bible states in many places "that where sin abounds grace much more abounds" That is an underlying principle that God's grace can cover even the most "grotesque" sins we can commit. But in the grand scheme of things, one sin committed is simply the same as a mass-murderer.
The doctrine of "original sin" which I believe in and is not universally accepted in Evangelicalism states we are Sinners "by nature" rather than by works.
So in other words we start off condemned, and are redeemed by the grace of God.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 3481 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
KillTheHumans wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Though shalt not kill is the answer.
Are you suggesting we are supposed to LOVE the zombies to death? Will this work before they can spear us and take our stockpiles of gold, guns and MRE's?
Killing or murder
Multiple translations exist of the sixth commandment; the Hebrew words לא תרצח are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder." Older Protestant translations of the Bible, those based on the Vulgate and Roman Catholic translations usually render it as "Thou shalt not kill," whereas Jewish and newer Protestant versions tend to use "You shall not murder." There is controversy as to which translation is more faithful, and both forms are quoted in support of many opposing ethical standpoints.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
vision-master wrote:
Killing or murder
Multiple translations exist of the sixth commandment; the Hebrew words לא תרצח are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder." Older Protestant translations of the Bible, those based on the Vulgate and Roman Catholic translations usually render it as "Thou shalt not kill," whereas Jewish and newer Protestant versions tend to use "You shall not murder." There is controversy as to which translation is more faithful, and both forms are quoted in support of many opposing ethical standpoints.
An interesting topic, but strays from the point. The Bible states:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
and
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
That is to say, a person is most likely going to tell a lie before he murders. The ten commandments was meant to reveal mankinds sinful nature and not give him a list of "do's" and "dont's" No man can obey the ten commandments, and breaking one commandment is the same as breaking all of God commandments (there are over 600 of them in the OT).
The OT Law was meant to drive men to the need for a saviour.
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