Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1542 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zzzpeakoil said: "If I were a moderator i would have moved your thread from Psychology. Religious sects have nothing to do with psychology, but with psychopathy."
Interesting, what is the diagnostic code in DSM-IV? I'd like to look that up. _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Sorry Ludi. Catholics belief in a "works based" salvation. They may claim to accept Christ as savior, but doctrinally they do not believe it.
I'm a recent convert. I don't see that any more than I see folks praying only to Mary.
I'm sure some do (every group has its percentage that misses the main memo and does their own thing), but I've seen otherwise. Saint Benedict said, "Ora et labora".
It's a good idea, I think (for what my opinion is worth, which ain't much LOL). Everyone should pray as though everything depends on God, but work as though everything depends on them. Just sitting around praying, expecting God to do it for you seems flawed (just as flawed as expecting your work alone to save you).
That's just my two bits. I dearly love Catholicism (and I'm generally not even an ISM fan), but I respect others who don't. I've told my children they have to choose. I take them to RE but I read them Carl Sagan. The God I understand wants willing followers, not mindless adherents.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4073 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf,
Thanks for the thoughtful and serious post. There have been times when I thought you might have turned a little too much water into wine, given the time of evening and the content of some of your posts. In fact, I admit to picturing you as a sort of Merlin-on-acid kind of character, so I enjoy hearing your serious voice.
To the topic:
I grew up in a Christian church and still attend one. My understanding of Christianity has evolved along with my understanding of the world. I am at the point in my faith where I am comfortable simply taking Jesus's teachings and attempting to apply them to my life as sincerely as I can.
I do not believe that the miracles, resurrection, immortality and other supernatural phenomena in the New Testament are necessary to validate the truth of Jesus's teachings. To me, his teachings stand on their own.
I think that getting bogged down in inter-denominational and inter-translational disagreements and distinctions is actually one of the things that Jesus was most opposed to--i.e., legalism and institutionalized spirituality. I am content to let other people believe what they want to believe. I will tell them what I believe if they ask or if it comes up in conversation, but I'm not big on the multi-level marketing approach to spreading the word.
As for the question about the Christian way of dealing with zombies, I think you gotta just shoot 'em in the head and if you feel the need you can pray about it when you get back to camp.
As for sharing food, outside my family I would probably share a little food if I had a lot. I might share a very little food if I only had a little. If I don't take care of myself, I won't be able to take care of anyone else. Sort of like on the airplanes when they tell you to put your oxygen mask on FIRST.
Throwing stones at Christianity is, to me, not a very productive exercise. Hardcore Christians are just going to throw them back at you, or, if you strike a mortal wound they're just going to take a martyr pose, and you really haven't accomplished anything for your trouble. I'm a little more laid back about things, so when people talk trash about Christianity, I don't argue, I just try to pass along some of Jesus's teachings as a counterpoint to whatever aspect of Christianity they are upset about.
As clear as Jesus tried to be about the role of humility in understanding, people have somehow used his message as a basis for viewing themselves and human beings in general as god-like and somehow not subject to the same laws of our finite world as other creatures. This is obviously cause for concern.
But Gandalf, it sounds like your faith gives gives you a sense of wholeness to your world, and that is something that many people will never feel. A coherent faith can provide a great sense of security and, if nothing else, is probably a good vaccine against disabling mental illness--i.e., just like you take a small amount of harmless viral material as a vaccine against a serious virus, perhaps religion at its best is adopting a small amount of delusional belief in the interest of preventing full blown mental illness as the hopelessness and futility of life begin to gnaw at you.
The trouble, of course, is when that small bit of voluntary delusional belief turns into an affliction worse than the mental illness you were trying to prevent. See the Crusades, the Holocaust, and radical Muslims as examples.
I am not trivializing faith by referring to it as a bit of voluntary delusion. We all have irrational beliefs that give us comfort, starting when you were a kid with the various entities that may have brought you gifts throughout the year.
The one bit of advice I would offer anyone who feels strong in their faith when times are good would be to be prepared to have their sense of confidence and certainty in their faith challenged when times are bad, either personally when you lose someone you love, or socially when the whole world begins to look like it's falling apart as peak oil, global warming, bird flu or some other calamity suddenly makes life a lot harder, and it feels like God has left you.
Some of you may have read about how Mother Teresa apparently felt absolutely no connection to God for something like the last 40 years of her life (based upon her writings that came to light after her death). That struck me as incredibly sad when I heard it. It was like a sincere belief led her to a life of service, but the reality of what she saw during her service made it impossible to preserve the illusions upon which her service was based. Not that she was saying "how can God let these things happen?", but more like "the fact that these things are happening makes it obvious that my understanding of God was flawed from the beginning." _________________
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
KillTheHumans wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Though shalt not kill is the answer.
Are you suggesting we are supposed to LOVE the zombies to death? Will this work before they can spear us and take our stockpiles of gold, guns and MRE's?
Your premise lies completely outside of a Biblical worldview, that is an important point.
Which Bible? Which translation? Which interpretation? I realize that guns and MRE's are "post-Bible" as it were, but SURELY it says something about protecting gold?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
According to the teaching recieved by roughly 70% of the American population in church they will not be here when the zombie hoardes are raging, that will be a time left for the unfortunate zombies themselves.
So...we don't have to stockpile ammo to shoot the zombies then? Rapture will, in fact, carry us true believers away in the nick of time? _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Hagakure_Leofman wrote:
I''m resisting the urge to post a few george carlin quotes in here... something about zombies and angels for example - but it's hard!
Carry on.....
I think Carlin is a riot (I obviously don't agree with everything he says), but the guy has a real knack for comedy. He makes a lot of very good points/observations.
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. "
Did you hear his bit on Katrina and Bush? So. Painfully. True.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12051 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
KillTheHumans wrote:
SURELY it says something about protecting gold?
Matthew 6:20-21 (New Living Translation)
Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Some of you may have read about how Mother Teresa apparently felt absolutely no connection to God for something like the last 40 years of her life (based upon her writings that came to light after her death). That struck me as incredibly sad when I heard it. It was like a sincere belief led her to a life of service, but the reality of what she saw during her service made it impossible to preserve the illusions upon which her service was based. Not that she was saying "how can God let these things happen?", but more like "the fact that these things are happening makes it obvious that my understanding of God was flawed from the beginning."
Mother Theresa was a prime example of a person attempting to "work" her way into God's grace, it cannot happen because Man in all of his best works are as filthy rags. In the end Mother Theresa's faith abondoned her because she never had any.
Last edited by clueless on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12051 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
I was not born yesterday.
No, but you insist on clinging to your idiotic notions in spite of evidence and personal testimony to the contrary. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
clueless wrote:
I was not born yesterday.
No, but you insist on clinging to your idiotic notions in spite of evidence and personal testimony to the contrary.
I am still waiting for some evidence Ludi, when you can provide some I will be glad to listen. Catholcism is not an historically accepted form of Biblical Christianity in any way, shape or form. The Pope is not infallable and does not speak ex-cathedra...That alone is enought to prove it is right from the pit of hell.
I appreciate your efforts here, I have alot of respect for Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church. There are things I do not agree with, but I have seen some good things in the RCC.
However, your author in the first link is not doing anyone any favors when he first talks about respect for other religions and then says this,
'The Sacred Magisterium, or Teaching Authority, remained in the Catholic Church when the Protestants left the Church. This means that only the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches have the authority to teach Christ's gospel.'
You might as well start the Reformation Movement and Protestantism all over again on April 17th, 2008 if you think that is a statement upheld by the Bible.
Sola Scriptura has to be the foundation of it all. Clearly no created being (save one whose name I will not mention here) would dare say they have the right to alter the will of God as they feel so moved.
This doctrine [The Sacred Magisterium] opened the door for the Catholic church to adopt all manner of deviations from a plain reading of Scripture. And it is on these points of concern that the Reformation lives to this day. What I care to see is not the areas where we disagree, but whether the orthodox teaching of the RC leaves room for repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone in response to God's grace. If it does that then according to the greatest authority on God on earth (the Bible) there exists a path to salvation in the Catholic Church.
I would not have my catholic brothers think that making reference to the first century, as if the RCC existed then, can fog the issues. In the beginning there was one church and it was centered in Jerusalem. All of the evil which has befallen the church has found place through the flesh, all of the good from the Spirit and there is one Lord, and one baptism, and one holy Church. This Church belongs to Jesus Christ as His Bride and there are members of it scattered among most of the existing churches in the world. As Christ said, 'Two shall be sleeping in one bed, one shall be taken and another left.'
Catholics should not delude themselves about the call of the Spirit in these times, it is not a call for other churches to return to Rome, but for all churches to return to Christ. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 3:10 pm; edited 4 times in total
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