I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Thank you for clarifying that, Gandalf. I think it is made more clear in the Lumen Gentium.
Ludi: yes or no.
Does The Pope claim to be:
1. Infallable when speaking Ex-Cathedra or "from the Chair" ?
2. The Vicar of Christ ?
Surely you cannot believe this religion is "Christian", there may some true Christians within the organization, but Catholic doctrine is not Christian doctrine.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
SolarDave wrote:
Observation/question:
In a way, mankind is going about the business of making oil "extinct." Burn it all, use it all, consume it all, whatever.
It appears similar human behavior is causing many species to become extinct.
I know that is a very vague comparison of outcomes, but the causes seem to be somewhat similar - lack of respect for the value of the thing being consumed, and eventually no more thing. The recent Salmon news comes to mind.
What is the Christian take on mankind eating a species to extinction or consuming a natural resource to depletion? Is there anything like "though shalt not mindlessly consume" or is it all "got forth and multiply" - resulting in no fish, no oil, no space, no clean water, no rain forests, no .... I guess another way to phrase it is "Is God a Cornucopian?" as in "Don't worry, I'll make more?"
I never hear any of my Christian acquaintances lament the loss of species on the way to their SUVs. If they care that little about permanently eradicating living things, why would they care care about using up liquid hydrocarbons, which are not alive? Should they care? Is there anything inherently "sinful" about Human Beings consuming an earthly thing (animal, vegetable, mineral) out of existence?
Sorry if this is off topic, or too metaphysical. Like I said, treat it as an observation if it's a ridiculous question like "what does the color blue weigh?".
Dave This is a topic I have addressed many many many times in this board. Prior to sin entering the world the world was a much different place. There was an ice canopy in the atmosphere creating a global greenhouse effect and hyperbaric living conditions. Things grew faster, larger and more abundanlty. When the first act of disobedience was committed the earth was most likely hit by a meteor, The earth is wobbling in a way that validates that fact, it crushed the ice canopy, created the "ice age" and global flood (spoken of by Noah) and living conditions were much much different after that. This is all validated by finds of tropical vegetation in places like siberia and greenland.
For 4500 years mankind lived off the land and struggled, the food chain was altered, things did not grow as big as they once did and it was much harder work, mankind "labored" where as before he "Tended".
In the industrial age we have in a sense "beat the curse" by using stored energy that was burried during the flood of Noah to feed our current living arrangements, and are now going to pay the price for it. God gave the Israelites specific instructions on land use and many other things that relate to sustainability which are being completely ignored these days, and yes you are right, most Christians (or visible ones these days) are completely ignorant of this.
For times sake I cannot share all the Biblical verses, but I assure you everything I shared is in the Bible and validated scientifcally.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
wisconsin_cur wrote:
I believe more in absolute truth that you could imagine, I just do not believe that it is obvious or that humanity will come to agreement upon it.
That's exactly how I see it too. I don't think anyone can "start believing" unless he has been given the faith.
clueless wrote:
I am vey well known in these forums for being "judgmental" "mean spirited" "self-righteous" etc.
It could be because you proclaim the truth without compromise. Or it could be because you say things that are judgmental and mean spirited. (I know you intend the former, but the latter is how the message is often interpreted by those who don't share our faith.)
I'm not saying that we should never make statements that sound judgmental. I'm just saying we should be extremely cautious when making such statements and season them with a lot of humility
"The gospel is a beggar telling another beggar how he found a kind person who gave him food."
clueless wrote:
I am on record numerous times as stating there can be no such thing as a "Self-Righteous" Christian, they are diametrically opposed
Only if that Christian is perfected in holiness. I'm afraid there's a lot of self righteousness left in all of us. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Only if that Christian is perfected in holiness. I'm afraid there's a lot of self righteousness left in all of us.
I have to agree - but a fundamental requirement of the Christian faith is the belief in your heart that there is no good thing within me, with the exception of the Righteousness of Christ. It is very easy for people to percieve a self righteous attitude in a person, most likely casued by them judging others as they are themselves, I know I am guilty of that.
In regards to being judgemental that is exaclty what I want people to percieve me as, we are called to judge right and wrong, as a matter of fact even the rankest post modernist pundit makes value judgements every single day - Life would be utter chaos without them.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
So it is not incumbent because it is hard?
Of course it usually is not an issue of martyrdom. The mennonites and the Amish have held to a position of non-resistance for nearly 500 years, most of them have lived long lives.
They did not kill when the Lutherans and Catholics were hunting and killing them and they have fled from space to space in order to avoid compulsrary military service.
If all you have is an easy Christianity than you can keep it, it isn't worth anything. It won't save you or anyone else.
Luke 6
Quote:
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
G.K. Chesterton once said,
Quote:
it's not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting but that it has been found hard and not tried.
It is funny really, it is the same kind of fuzzy thinking that leads people to say that there cannot be an irreversible peak in oil production because living post-peak would be too hard.
I would love to hear clueless on this. Does he believe in absolute truth only until it gets hard?
Wis, The Christian Church has always flourished during "hard times", the reality about that is and something I proclaim to my CHristian Peers is that we are currently living in the exception rather than the rule. Am I looking forward to hard times ? My flesh certianly does not, but my spirit longs for a day when mankind will be forced to accept reality rather than fantasy. It is nearly impossible to get the average persons attention about anything these days, in many ways hard times will make things much easier. I have three young boys and I would rather raised them in a world where things are not as easy.
In summary - When/If things get really hard our the Bible is filled with accounts of men having "supernatural" faith - I pray God would give me the same.
You did not answer the question. I do not believe that Christians should kill, ever, under any circumstances. We can play with the verbage "Word of God" and what that means but I find more compelling how you respond to the word more than what you call it. So again, do you practice the sermon on the mount/plain or not?
It doesn't matter what you call the scripture if you only use them to condemn and judge others and do not let it guide and instruct you esp when it is hard and certainly when it goes against one's culture. I like Jack's original verbage, what is the "optimal" Christian response. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Quote:
Only if that Christian is perfected in holiness. I'm afraid there's a lot of self righteousness left in all of us.
I have to agree - but a fundamental requirement of the Christian faith is the belief in your heart that there is no good thing within me, with the exception of the Righteousness of Christ. It is very easy for people to percieve a self righteous attitude in a person, most likely casued by them judging others as they are themselves, I know I am guilty of that.
In regards to being judgemental that is exaclty what I want people to percieve me as, we are called to judge right and wrong, as a matter of fact even the rankest post modernist pundit makes value judgements every single day - Life would be utter chaos without them.
Every post-modern individual would agree with you. You continue to display that you have spent a little too much time being told what to think by Dobson and his like than actually engaging and listening to those with another perspective than your own. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
You did not answer the question. I do not believe that Christians should kill, ever, under any circumstances. We can play with the verbage "Word of God" and what that means but I find more compelling how you respond to the word more than what you call it. So again, do you practice the sermon on the mount/plain or not?
It doesn't matter what you call the scripture if you only use them to condemn and judge others and do not let it guide and instruct you esp when it is hard and certainly when it goes against one's culture.
Are you referring to war ? I happen to be a pacifist personally, I do not believe any person should have to be killed to protect my "way of life" or anything else.
That being said - if it came down to going to war I could not live with my self if I were to "dodge the draft" or something to that effect knowing that some other person had to go and maybe even be killed in my place...
So to answer you question, by default I personally would go to war, not because I necesarlly believe in it (I do believe some wars are justified though), but because I could not live with myself knowing that I "dodged" and another may have gone (and been killed) in my place.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Every post-modern individual would agree with you. You continue to display that you have spent a little too much time being told what to think by Dobson and his like than actually engaging and listening to those with another perspective than your own.
Dobson is a nut. Not even close to being on my list of respected persons. Keep trying.
Robertson, Fallwell, Hagee and the like are also not on my list.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Lumpy wrote:
zzzpeakoil wrote:
If I were a moderator i would have moved your thread from Psychology. Religious sects have nothing to do with psychology, but with psychopathy.
I'm going to give you a break here, and say that I'll bet you meant "psychopathology".
Quote:
You are totally ridiculous to think that "God" can be of any help to anybody, or even to think it has anything to do with peak oil.
Why would it be totally ridiculous? Please support this statement with SOMETHING.
Quote:
I won't disturb you in your preaching, I don't debate christians, as I am a psycologist and my most interactions with them are in the form of doctor-pacient.
I seriously doubt that you are a "psycologist" (sic), since I practice psychiatry -- and have found that all real psychologists can spell the word correctly. It's sort of a requirement, you see. Oh yes, and we call them "patients", not "pacient".
What I really think you are is an annoying and possibly drunk imposter.
Do not further humiliate yourself with such posts.
Lumpy
You stupid asshole! I am romanian, and english is not my native language. What do some spelling errors have to do with my psychology profession?
The support of my statement, asshole, is that "god" does not exist. So anybody who believes in his existence is a stupid farking insane person.
You are most probably, a troll, so you are from now on in my ignore list.
Freud, for example, is reknown to have considered religion a mental disease.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4331 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zzzpeakoil wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
zzzpeakoil wrote:
If I were a moderator i would have moved your thread from Psychology. Religious sects have nothing to do with psychology, but with psychopathy.
I'm going to give you a break here, and say that I'll bet you meant "psychopathology".
Quote:
You are totally ridiculous to think that "God" can be of any help to anybody, or even to think it has anything to do with peak oil.
Why would it be totally ridiculous? Please support this statement with SOMETHING.
Quote:
I won't disturb you in your preaching, I don't debate christians, as I am a psycologist and my most interactions with them are in the form of doctor-pacient.
I seriously doubt that you are a "psycologist" (sic), since I practice psychiatry -- and have found that all real psychologists can spell the word correctly. It's sort of a requirement, you see. Oh yes, and we call them "patients", not "pacient".
What I really think you are is an annoying and possibly drunk imposter.
Do not further humiliate yourself with such posts.
Lumpy
You stupid asshole! I am romanian, and english is not my native language. What do some spelling errors have to do with my psychology profession?
The support of my statement, asshole, is that "god" does not exist. So anybody who believes in his existence is a stupid farking insane person.
You are most probably, a troll, so you are from now on in my ignore list.
Freud, for example, is reknown to have considered religion a mental disease.
zzpeakoil, please relax. If Lumpy or anyone else disagrees with you about the existence of God or anything else, it doesn't make them a "stupid asshole."
You are certain of what you believe, and that's cool. Expecting others to share your certainty just because of the strength of YOUR belief is not the way the human mind works.
You should know that.
Do you talk to your patients this way? _________________
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Prior to sin entering the world the world was a much different place. There was an ice canopy in the atmosphere creating a global greenhouse effect and hyperbaric living conditions. Things grew faster, larger and more abundanlty. When the first act of disobedience was committed the earth was most likely hit by a meteor, The earth is wobbling in a way that validates that fact, it crushed the ice canopy, created the "ice age" and global flood (spoken of by Noah) and living conditions were much much different after that. This is all validated by finds of tropical vegetation in places like siberia and greenland.
For 4500 years mankind lived off the land and struggled, the food chain was altered, things did not grow as big as they once did and it was much harder work, mankind "labored" where as before he "Tended".
In the industrial age we have in a sense "beat the curse" by using stored energy that was burried during the flood of Noah to feed our current living arrangements, and are now going to pay the price for it. God gave the Israelites specific instructions on land use and many other things that relate to sustainability which are being completely ignored these days, and yes you are right, most Christians (or visible ones these days) are completely ignorant of this.
For times sake I cannot share all the Biblical verses, but I assure you everything I shared is in the Bible and validated scientifcally.
LOFL!
That was the most far-fetched, comical fantasy I've ever ever read on po.com, and that includes Raphael's posts. All of them.
Thanks for the laugh. Ice canopy in the atmosphere, LOFL!
You just can't make this stuff up!
Tropical vegetation has been found deposited in currently cold places because the cold places used to be in the tropics. Plate tectonic motions brought the plates to where they are today - oodles of science proves this. Google Pangea and watch a vid clip of plate movements, like India into Asia.
And the rest of us wonder why nothing gets fixed.
Wonder no more, this thread will document why everything is effed up.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
LOFL!
That was the most far-fetched, comical fantasy I've ever ever read on po.com, and that includes Raphael's posts. All of them.
Thanks for the laugh. Ice canopy in the atmosphere, LOFL!
You just can't make this stuff up!
Tropical vegetation has been found deposited in currently cold places because the cold places used to be in the tropics. Plate tectonic motions brought the plates to where they are today - oodles of science proves this. Google Pangea and watch a vid clip of plate movements, like India into Asia.
And the rest of us wonder why nothing gets fixed.
Wonder no more, this thread will document why everything is effed up.
Oh really - You of course have scientifc proof of this massive tectonic shift ? The continents did not "fit" together as you claim and in order to do so massive amounts of Africa, South Americea and others need to be magically "shaved off".
There are many non-Christian "scientists" that disagree with you.
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." And God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. And God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Genesis 1:6-8: NASB)2
Any time you wish to debate Basil I am here.....Bring it on !!!! Sorry to bust your worldview Basil, but people in your camp cannot even agree about thousands of facts...Sorry dude, all you have is a bundh of rogue fantasy opinions and have an ever increasing number of legitmate scientist buying the "intelligent design" theory. Of course you will not believe this and attribute it to propoganda, but Energy and Matter did not come from "nothing".
And the more science discovers, the more they realize evolution is the most ridiculous hoax ever foisted on the world.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Freud ? The guy was a cocaine and nicotine addict, as well as a sex fiend. This is a person you admire ?
You have just commited 2 logical fallacies !! WOW in just 2 lines of text : Straw-man , (implying that i admire Freud, which is not the case) , and second : Ad Hominem, implying that just because Freud was nicotine and cocaine consumer, and "sex fiend" (whatever would that be), all his views as a psychologist are flawed.
It is of no wonder why you called yourself "clueless"
You are totally clueless, clueless.
And last, but as important, I do not call everybody who disagrees with me on anything stupid. But when somebody dares to make such contradictions and logical fallacies and outrageous statements , or purely insults , I will always treat them with the respect that they deserve : zilch!
Wtf... I wont waste any more time on this thread. I am out.
Maybe I had let my temper express himself too hard in my posts, for this i do apologise to everybody who takes easy offence. However i do not retract anything and will not add anything more.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Sorry to bust your world view, but the proof of my view is in every bedrock geology map, look one up, start with Connecticut as I'm most familiar with that area. At least your handle is spot on.
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