From the Farm: A Peak Oil Journal

CarlinsDarlin · Moderator Joined: Jul 02, 2004 Posts: 1422

Pheba,
I'm enjoying reading your journal. Keep it up. A couple comments on your last post, though.

Pops

Somehow Kathy I thought you might chime in about here.

It's all good I'm thinking. What has been won't be come soon - we can all learn from each other and had better.

Smile

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CarlinsDarlin · Moderator Joined: Jul 02, 2004 Posts: 1422

I agree, Pops. That's why I replied.

More people around the world drink goat milk than milk from any other animal. Goats can be raised on a smaller parcel of land, and less "quality" pasture, and mature in a shorter amount of time than cows, thus making them more economical as meat animals, too. They get a bad rap too often - I don't know why - but they're intelligent animals, easy to work with, and great additions to any small landholding.

Kathy

Edited to add: Dense populations have been in the middle east for millenia. I doubt you can blame the fact that there is desert on goats. It's a matter of poor management of resources, too many people, too little land. We shall find the same thing here soon enough. The native Americans understood how to live with nature, not exploit it. Colonization started this continent down the same road. We've only had a dense, exploitative population here for a few hundred years. Give it time.

Ludi

Just FYI - sheep only have lower teeth.
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PhebaAndThePilgrim

Good day from Pheba, from the farm:
I learn something every day. Now I need to go do some more homework.
I was always told that sheep and goats crop different than cattle. I always assumed it was because of the different teeth. I guess then that horses are the only herbivores in our discussion with two sets of teeth.
Interesting.
Thanks for setting me straight.

I have owned cattle, sheep, goats and horses. I prefer cattle.
I guess the defining word here is small farm.
Since we pasture livestock on 160 acres it would be extremely difficult for us to take care of the number of sheep or goats the acreage would need.

Our neighbors that have the menagerie seem to crowd a lot of animals in a very small space. Also, they do not seem to rotate the animals very often. I would think that keeping such a large number of different species in such a confined space would cause problems with parasites.
They keep the grass completely grubbed down.

I guess I am just a bovine bigot. I prefer my cows.
As far as the destructive capabilities of goats, further thought has led me to wonder if the destructive capabilities are not with us.
Given their own tendency to roam most herbivores would not destroy their habitat.
We confine them to small spaces then complain when the habitat is damaged. From what I have witnessed, goat owners, and horse owners seem to be the worst to confine too many animals in too small a space.

Winter before last we had some neighbors who had 6 horses in a small lot with some trees along the south fence.
By spring the entire wall of trees had been killed. The horses were so hungry they completely stripped the bark from the trees.
People who buy animals and do not properly care for them are at the top of my scumbag list. Although really that is up at the top of my list with people who have kids and won't take care of them.

During summer heat we move the cattle every 3 days.
We try to practice intensive grazing management. We do this to prevent erosion, and to keep the grass from getting too high. The cattle also like the fresh pasture, and it reduces parasite infestation.

When the Pilgrim retires we would like to have chickens in chicken tractors. The tractors could follow the cattle from pasture to pasture. At least, that is what I have read is a good plan for rotating chickens and cattle. Does anybody do this?

Goat owners, is intensive grazing management used for goats also?

We have some neighbors a few miles away who raise goats also. Their goats seem healthier and are fewer in number than the menagerie. How much acreage does a goat need?

It would be interesting to do a comparison to rate acreage needed vs meat produced.

Which herbivore is the most efficient at turning acreage into meat?
I once read that the rabbit is the most efficient, but I have no plans to raise rabbit.

I do not have time to look it up. If anybody does I think it would be a great post on here. I would not be surprised if cattle were not at the bottom of the list.

Hey Pops: One of the problems with Simmental cattle is their large size and large shoulders. For many years we had a nightmare of having to pull calves.

We added some Red Angus blood and never have to pull a calf.
We hate those big calves. The big dumb bull calves are the worst.
We rarely have those. It has been about 4 years now since we changed our breeding program.

We like calves to weight 65 to 85 pounds, no more.
We are happiest to see them born small, and "hit the ground running".
Simmental cattle have a tendency to over-gestate. They can overcook. A Simmental bull calf that over-gestates for two weeks, then goes through being born is a pitiful site.
They can weigh over 100 pounds. We have had 120 pound calves in the past.
The poor animals have swollen heads and tongues from the trauma of birth, and are poor starters. Many of them have to be taught how to nurse.

At one year the weaning weight of a small birth weight calf is usually the same, or heavier than a large birth weight calf. It takes a calf a long time to overcome the trauma of that large birth.
Many of the big bull calves are born knuckled under. Their knuckles, actually their knees are not fully formed, and they can't walk on their feet for the first week or so of life.

One of the best things we ever did for our cattle was to change our breeding program to produce small birth weight calves. The mothers have no more calving problems, and we have beautiful babies that hit the ground running.

Would like to learn more about sheep and goats. Maybe I can over come my bovine bigotry. Actually I think it is the owners that I am bigoted against. I see so much abuse of these smaller herbivores in my area. And, most of the city people who move here and buy horses, just to abuse them, should be shot.

Have a great Monday.

Pheba.

SpringCreekFarm · Intermediate Crude Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 950

Although Highland cattle finish a little smaller than others, they make good use of meager pasture. This might be a good hedge against rising fertilizer costs.

Highland Cattle

Pops

Pops

Here is a little calf born this morning from a heifer (black back with a white band in the foreground). The pic is a little deceiving - he is really small he weighs less than a feed sack. The girl to the right is a twin to the boy at the far right.

When twins are born and one is a bull and one is a heifer most times she isn't - she is a freemartin and is sterile.
More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin

Top left are weaned calves that have a little pen to run in and get ready for grass.

Show us some pics of your operation P & P...
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CarlinsDarlin · Moderator Joined: Jul 02, 2004 Posts: 1422

AH! THAT'S what that means. I heard the term FreeMartin the other day and had no clue what they were talking about. Didn't have time to look it up, either, so you've saved me some digging, Pops.

Cute calves by the way. Smile

Kathy

SpringCreekFarm · Intermediate Crude Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 950

Yea, thanks Pops. I didn't know they were called freemartin. Interesting Wiki article too.

At our sale barn, calves like that have been selling for 30 bucks lately. Is it similar in your parts?

Just a year or so ago, calves that size were fetching $120, some $200. I meant to stop in today's sale but was too busy.

Pops

I don't get mine at auction but may need to one day - here is the report from the last dairy and feeder sales:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/jc_ls131.txt
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/jc_ls771.txt
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MarkL · Moderator Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 283 Location: US

This thread moved from the Peak Oil Discussion Forum to the Planning for the Future forum.

mark
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bobaloo · Heavy Crude Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 485

Just a couple of comments. If you're looking for a cash crop, when I farmed in Missouri I had several acres of raspberries. At least at that time, 70's and 80's, I was the only raspberry grower in the region and I was getting $3 per pound U-pick, it was great. The trick was the right variety and how they were grown. I grew Heritage raspberries, they're unusual in that they bear on the current year's growth. I grew them in 3' wide rows and I cut them to the ground late each Fall, then put 6" or so of rotted horse manure and straw on top of the row. That kept the weeds out, fertilized them, and kept them cool and moist through the summer. Very low maintenance since you don't have to tie up vines and so on. They'd start bearing in August and go until they froze in November or so.

Now that I'm living in the Northwest I'm raising sheep. What I've learned is that sheep are browsers. For them, grass is their last choice of food, they'd much rather eat the tips of branches and a mixed salad of various greens. What that means is that after 20 years on the same pasture they've eliminated almost all of the weeds and blackberries, which are real pests out here. Generally cows and horses prefer grass, which means that over time the pasture will often tend to get more and more weedy. I've found that sheep take very little pasture maintenance as they tend to naturally improve it over time, unless it's terribly overgrazed. The big thing out here is that the ground is wet for 8-9 months per year. Horses and cows are so heavy that they dig into the ground and gradually turn pasture into a mud pit unless they have lots of room to roam, whereas sheep and goats are so light that they don't tear up the soil. I don't know how the production per acre compares, but I couldn't run cows here if I wanted to because of the damage they cause to the ground in this area. I do love the year-round pasture, the grass is greener here in the winter, late summer is our lean time when it has not rained for a couple of months.

Good luck.