Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
As for commenting on your Christianity, I think I already have given a witness about what is possible in a relationship with God in Christ. I am very aware of the many Christians who live on some degree of the deconstructionist scale.
"Deconstructionist scale" is an interpretation of yours, not a claim of mine, right?
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Start with not believing God does miracles.
That's not what I wrote. What I wrote was that the validity and truth of Jesus's message are not contingent upon the performance of miracles. I didn't say that it didn't happen, I just said that it is not that important to me either way.
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Next wonder if maybe God exists at all except as a creation of men who needed to explain their own insecurities and control the people around them using theirs.
Why must it be either/or? Is it not possible for God to exist apart from our conception of him?
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Slippery slope is usually a logical fallacy (sometimes slipery slopes actually exist), but I think there is a slippery slope into the darkness of denial.
Denial of what? Sometimes a slope just looks slippery because of the way your head is tilted.
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It would be for you to judge if you have a form of religion that denies the power of God.
What do you mean by the "power of God"?
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If you ever feel yourself lacking closeness to God, I would encourage you to do the craziest thing, take a bible and get out somewhere far away from everything, spend some time considering the peacefulness and looking over the issues of life and then open the book up to John chapters 12-16, offer short 'I'm willing if you are there Lord' and start reading. I think God would honor that and speak to you.
If it ever comes to that I may give it a try. John is not one of my favorites because of its dreamlike tone, but I will keep that one in the quiver.
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Certainly your general description of your world view is christ like, Jesus used his confrontational savvy in only one instance where he was not provoked, that was upon entereing the temple and recognizing what the Jews had done to that house of prayer. Other than that He was seeking and saving the lost.
It seems to me that having a worldview that is Christlike is one of the highest expressions of Christianity. I will take that as a compliment.
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I think some people get scared away from the Book of Revelation because it seems crazy from the perspective of the modern psycho-babble society, but really it is simply a notice to the residents of the world that the Landlord will follow through on eviction if they don't get it together.
If you interpret the allegory broadly enough, Revelation could actually be a book about peak oil.
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I am glad that God would eventually put and end to it and say close the doors, time to shut down this show and get the stage set for the next one.
Are you thinking Tower of Babel, another flood, or maybe...just maybe...a die-off?
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My question to you would be are you fulfilled by your faith?
Yes. Still polishing the edges, though.
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Are you willing to forsake anything the Bible calls sin to experience a relationship with God that will validate every correct interpretation of the Bible, and your own eternal life?
Okay, that was a 23 idea pile-up. I have the same uneasy relationship with sin that we all do. I do not know what "correct" interpretations of the Bible are. I also don't know what "eternal life" means. I used to have an idea, but experience has blurred the lines a bit. I am certain of this moment, the rest is a little fuzzy.
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Now, if I am preaching to the squire here let it fall off of you. But if it touches your heart take your own time to deal with it as seems best to you.
I thought you called me a squirrel for a second.
You are sharing your sincere beliefs. I always enjoy sincerity, so long as it is not accompanied by threats.
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I will pray for you that any assurance you seek you will find, if for the first time or again after having lost it. God is love, John tells us that, and the life of every believer confirms it.
I think it is worth asking oneself whether some of the assurances we seek are reasonable in the first place. My seven year old would like assurances of unlimited toys. Many adults would like assurances of immortality. Others would like assurance of wealth or power. The only assurance I would like is that I will have the opportunity to find meaning in life. One day I will die and I think that looking back and seeing days filled with meaning and purpose will be satisfying. It makes me sad to see people reach the end of life, only to find a loss of faith because the assurances that were sought through their beliefs were unrealistic in the first place.
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If you would like me to exegete something to give you a perspective on how I see the Scripture I would be happy to do that. I quote the Bible because I consider it authoritative in spiritual matters (and therefore in many temporal matters) but sometimes I forget the way quotation can be viewed by those outside the circles I usually walk in.
You rest, I'll drive for a while.
Here are a few I like from the New King James version:
"It is honorable for a man to stop striving,
Since any fool can start a quarrel."
-Proverbs 20:3
"For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing.
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, their hatred,
and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun"
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
"Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Ecclesiastes 9:9-10
"Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for today is its own trouble."
-Matthew 6:34
"So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God."
-James 2:19-20
Nice. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
You know, I wonder what the role of faith would be if every aspect of the Bible or of any religion could be "validated scientifically."
That's an odd way to describe any aspect of spirituality.
That's certainly one thing I don't understand about the "creation science" types - that they work so hard to "scientifically validate" matters of faith. I don't understand the kind of faith that needs to be "scientifically validated."
I understand your point. Can I also say that I don't understand why people think faith is such an enigma. The Greek word most often translated 'faith' in the NT is pistis and it means trusting in the faithfulness of God. There is no mystery to that, if God exists and God is good and we have the ability to trust anyone let us trust God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (right standing with God.) So then all that remains is hearing from the source. Peter said,
'Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. for by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.'
2 Peter 2:3-4
What promises has God made to those who believe in Jesus?
Have a great day y'all! I'm off for a day with the family. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
You know, I wonder what the role of faith would be if every aspect of the Bible or of any religion could be "validated scientifically."
That's an odd way to describe any aspect of spirituality.
That's certainly one thing I don't understand about the "creation science" types - that they work so hard to "scientifically validate" matters of faith. I don't understand the kind of faith that needs to be "scientifically validated."
Oh I forgot -So you are then saying to know the intentions of every "creation science" type ?
Blind, Arrogant Bigots are so easy to expose. You do not pose much of a challenge Ludi.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf, I guess I have a rather strange concept of "faith" myself. I don't personally "believe" in the Christian message, because I don't find it convincing - I don't have faith. On the other hand, if Jesus is the Saviour, if that is indeed a fact (which I can't know, I can only "believe" or have faith that it is a fact, which I don't, unfortunately) - if it is a fact that Jesus is the Saviour then my opinion of it doesn't change the fact. Therefore, if Jesus is the Saviour, then he is the Saviour. So my belief is - "If it is a fact that Jesus is the Saviour, then he is the Saviour." So I suppose in a weird round-about way, I believe Jesus is the Saviour (even though I find it as a fact, unbelievable).
Unfortunately, all the threats leveled at me by Christians hasn't made my faith in Christianity return (I used to be a devout Christian myself). Maybe it will someday, I just don't know. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
I like that you have verses which inform your conduct. It seems like we would agree on that, being Christian is about saying and doing, thinking and acting, but what is the motivation and what is the source of salvation? I am restrained in my actions 'for God' by the words of Paul to Timothy among which this one stands out to me, since I was intemperate in my youth.
'And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition'
2 Timothy 2:24,25a
Such a standard is not easy to maintain unless we have recourse to the power of God. And even then we all stumble in many ways
(James 3:2)
I appreciate your conversation Tex. Nice to meet you. I do think that the Book of Revelation contains alot of things that are reflective of PO, climate change, globalization gone wrong etc. I think relocalization is a good thing. Once we get our priorities straight we can start to talk about how best to build regional and global economies. I do believe that will be a discussion to be had with the Lord when He is reigning from Jerusalem, but of course it is a discussion we can already have with Him in our hearts through His Spirit (1 John 2:27.)
Talk to y'all! _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf, I guess I have a rather strange concept of "faith" myself. I don't personally "believe" in the Christian message, because I don't find it convincing - I don't have faith. On the other hand, if Jesus is the Saviour, if that is indeed a fact (which I can't know, I can only "believe" or have faith that it is a fact, which I don't, unfortunately) - if it is a fact that Jesus is the Saviour then my opinion of it doesn't change the fact. Therefore, if Jesus is the Saviour, then he is the Saviour. So my belief is - "If it is a fact that Jesus is the Saviour, then he is the Saviour." So I suppose in a weird round-about way, I believe Jesus is the Saviour (even though I find it as a fact, unbelievable).
Unfortunately, all the threats leveled at me by Christians hasn't made my faith in Christianity return (I used to be a devout Christian myself). Maybe it will someday, I just don't know.
Don't delude yourself Ludi.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
You were never a "devout" Christian.
Joh 10:24-28 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. (25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Of course your will call my quoting scripture a Threat.
And please Ludi, quit trying to attack the message by attacking the messenger. You have no faith because you refuse to believe, and simply stated it has not been given to you.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
I like that you have verses which inform your conduct. I seems like we would agree on that, being Christian is about saying and doing, thinking and acting. I am restrained in my actions 'for God' by the words of Paul to Timothy among which this one stands out to me, since I was intemperate in my youth.
Big Tex this is not doctrinally correct. We are to show our faith by our works, but again we get into a subject of reletavism here which in the end leads us nowhere as unless a person is willing to accept a source of absolute truth (in my case the Bible), there is no place a person can justify any sense of right and wrong.
As my friend Ludi does - She claims to have a source of truth but uses Wiccans, Popes, Hindu's and the like to support that source, as you can see Truth cannot be self-contradictory.
Our works and labors on this planet in the eyes of God get us nowhere, which is my point about imperfection, are some more imperfect than others ? Certainly so, but imperfection is imperfection especially when confronted with perfection.
I hope to do good works to my fellow man, but I believe the ultimate "good work" is for them to know the ultimate source of Truth. As we can see some here are offended by my "works" but I cannot do anything about that, that is what I believe is a good work modeled by Christ - His ultimate purpose was to come to seek and save that which was lost.
Last edited by clueless on Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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