Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13141 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Wis, have I not posted here on numerous occasions that there can be no such thing as a self-righteous Christian ? I am not "judging" anyone, I am reading what they/you right and trying to (yes judge) on a bilbical standard
Priceless. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
clueless wrote:
Wis, have I not posted here on numerous occasions that there can be no such thing as a self-righteous Christian ? I am not "judging" anyone, I am reading what they/you right and trying to (yes judge) on a bilbical standard
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Quote:
Works done in Christ do abide.
Yes Gandalf I agree but they are not "our" works - they are a work of his working through us. This is a vital concept we need to remember. Most false religions these days incorporate a works component into their "process"(see threadbears earlier post about man being born "pretty good")
I just watched a special on 50 yrs on Everest in which a Hindu expedtion DR. was talking to a fellow hindu sherpa and saying "sometimes we need to perfect ourselves in order for the goddess to accept us" (or something to that effect). That is exaclty opposite of the Christian Gospel.
That is a biblical truth statement foundational and unique to Christianity.
Absolutely,
We cannot think that our own works give us place with God, they are as filthy rags. Once we have repented of sin and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior there can begin works that abide, though that is not a guarantee unless we have run for the prize according to the rules (which are laid out for all to see in the Bible.)
Hinduism, bhuddism, catholicism (to a large degree) and many other religions have messages that say human effort can make us worthy. Christianity is alone (as far as I know) in telling us that it is not by works that we have done but by God's grace that salvation is offered. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13141 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Here's a question I wanted to ask of Christians:
Why do you accept the Biblical canon which was assembled by an early Bishop (Athanasius) and not accept all early Christian religious texts? I'm curious why you accept the authority of a Catholic bishop instead of deciding for yourselves which religious texts are the word of God. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Over the tracks, left under the overpass, right, third boxcar on the left, ask for Jack
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Rejoice brothers and sisters, your reward is in heaven!
The classic punch line of hucksters, showmen, penny stock sales people and their ilk the world over. Behave like a good little boy (or girl) and you’ll get your candy bar later. Religion has trumped everything in this regard since there is absolutely no way to know the outcome.
It’s a matter of wonderment to me how people continue to fall for such transparent attempts at manipulation, regardless of the ‘cause’ or scam being perpetrated.
Other than this being a peak oil thread, what has Christianity specifically to do with oil? Why not copper, or coal, or pork hocks, or orange juice or any other traded commodity? Why not enquire what the Buddhist approach might be? Or Judaism? Or Islam? Or Hinduism?
It’s all largely irrelevant anyway. On an individual level, the responses to events that occur will inevitably be those perceived to be in one’s best self interest.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Catholicism is a Christian religion.
There are bible believing catholics, as if that matters to catholics in general who are quite content with their religion no matter what it claims. Some of the doctrines of the catholic church contradict the canon of the early church, or require extra-biblical texts to justify said doctrines (worship of Mary for instance, trans-substantiation for another.)
Before we get into splitting hairs about the term, we should at least agree that anyone who practices sin cannot be a Christian according to either the Catholic Canon or the narrower Protestant Canon.
Are there differences between how one obtains forgiveness for sin in the Catholic and Protestant religious traditions? _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
lper100km wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Rejoice brothers and sisters, your reward is in heaven!
The classic punch line of hucksters, showmen, penny stock sales people and their ilk the world over. Behave like a good little boy (or girl) and you’ll get your candy bar later. Religion has trumped everything in this regard since there is absolutely no way to know the outcome.
It’s a matter of wonderment to me how people continue to fall for such transparent attempts at manipulation, regardless of the ‘cause’ or scam being perpetrated.
Other than this being a peak oil thread, what has Christianity specifically to do with oil? Why not copper, or coal, or pork hocks, or orange juice or any other traded commodity? Why not enquire what the Buddhist approach might be? Or Judaism? Or Islam? Or Hinduism?
It’s all largely irrelevant anyway. On an individual level, the responses to events that occur will inevitably be those perceived to be in one’s best self interest.
You can start such threads. Religion in general is important in it's socio-political implications. Christianity in particular is important because most Americans consider themselves Christian. How American Christians perceive peak oil could make or break any attempt to mitigate it. But that is not why I started this thread. I actually started it in psychology because it was the appropriate place to offer Biblical hope to those struggling with the earth shattering revelation that is peak oil.
If I were to start asking for donations would that make the huckster part more believable? I would never do that. What if I insisted that only people from my clique could be consulted to solve the world's problems and that you had to pay us to do it? Then I would be an economist.
The hope of heaven in the gospel, all by itself, is not anymore motivated by misplaced trust and hucksterism than laissez fair economics. That men have been able to use it for sorded gain is an indictment of both them and the ones who were so easily led astray. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 3328 Location: Resiliency Farm
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Here's a question I wanted to ask of Christians:
Why do you accept the Biblical canon which was assembled by an early Bishop (Athanasius) and not accept all early Christian religious texts? I'm curious why you accept the authority of a Catholic bishop instead of deciding for yourselves which religious texts are the word of God.
To be fair the development of the cannon was a little more complicated than that.
Until the 4th c. or so there was no agreement on the cannon. Some regions did not accept John's Revelation others included 1 Enoch and the Assumption of Moses (because the letter of Jude seems to consider them authoritative and the accepted Jude as authoritative). At some point there was a consensus (among leaders) that there needed to be some conformity across the church if the church was to be able to teach and preach consistently across time and space.
What happened is that after the (politica) consensus was reached (yes some were forced into consensus) we have what we have. What resulted is that everyone is now free to choose from that cannon what they decide to emphasize or neglect. Many decide to neglect the sermon on the mount (it is too hard or unrealistic) and others like to emphasize the OT (they still want God to strike down people they do not like, it is easier than loving your enemies like Jesus instructed). Luther neglected James (it did not fit his theology) and in the last 40 years most of us in the West have decided to neglect the Corinthian letters.
I am not saying this is good or consistant, but it seems to me to be the way things are. So, why accept the cannon as it is?
I think that there are a number of reasons:
1. We have it.
2. The texts all appear to be more or less what they claim to be, the teaching of the early church through that first to maybe third generation (I'm going to catch some flak for this. Even in the third generation you still have leaders who learned from the first generation. The Epilogue of John's gospel seems to have been written after the author died and Hebrews has always struck me as having been written to children of that first generation of Christians).
3. The diversity of the teaching corresponds to the diversity of teaching in the main stream of the early church. Yes, some movements were purposfully kept out (the gnostics). I do not have a problem with that, some might. We did keep however, some texts that lend themselves to a gnostic reading. I think they kept what they needed and not the fringe texts... no problem they were, after all putting together what they could all (more or less) agree upon.
4. That diversity of teaching keeps us in check. Luther did a lot of things wrong (my opinion) but James is his counter-balance. The medieval catholic church did a lot of things wrong, many texts served as a couter balance (once people could read them).
5. A common cannon gives us an agreed to authority that allows us to have an argument and maintain an underlying unity. We have an authority greater than ourselves to use as argument. It doesn't mean that we do not split or even kill each other over dogma, but it means we don't have to if we decided to humble ourselves to the text and one another. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
"The time has come for men to act like men; and for women, well, to act a lot more like men."
-Ma Cur
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 3328 Location: Resiliency Farm
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
vision-master wrote:
I've been talking about PO to this Bible Thumpen friend of mine.
His reaction is I need to start reading the Bible as he figures true believers will be saved. Things will be ok as God will make sure of that.
He don't want to hear any such notion that the Rapture is comming.
Funny thing is, I bet he stocks up if he hears a 1 week snowstorm is coming.
People don't trust God for snowstorms but they do for Peak Oil? Just goes to show that there is sometimes too little critical thinking in the church about these issues.
A lot of Hebrew died in Egypt.
A lot of Christians died in the early persecutions.
A lot of good believing folk died in every calamity since there was a church.
and we got people out there saying, "Just trust God, it will be alright."
not dissing God, just saying he ain't going to change (his) laws of physics to save your physical existence.
I would rather be one of those that he uses to rebuild afterward than one of the saints we remember for their noble death... and I don't know that he just picks and chooses who will be which...
God is good but he aint your servent and he gives good gifts, but ain't Santi Clause and he saves those who trust in him but sometimes that is talking about resurrection (ie God did not abandon Jesus to the grave but Jesus did die a tortorous death). I trust God for resurrection... I think there is a degree to which we are on our own concerning the how and when of death.
To the extent that I have a vote, I volunteer for later on the death thing. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
"The time has come for men to act like men; and for women, well, to act a lot more like men."
-Ma Cur
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13141 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Cur, I'm aware the development of the canon is more complicated than that. But essentially it comes down to decisions made by bishops in the 4th century.
Why are Christians not interested in the other early Christian texts?
Why accept the authority of these men? Is what I'm asking.
For me, when I was a "Christian" (putting that in quotes for those who think I wasn't one, I thought I was!) it was ignorance - I didn't know other texts existed and I was ignorant of the history of the church. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi,
I was almost 40 years old when I really began studying Christianity. I lived as a Christian as a child, then spent some time (almost 15 years) studying other faiths and practicing them, finally coming back to my roots as I got older. I began to *really* study, because I wanted to try to figure out why I had left the faith in the first place, and if it indeed *was* the right path. At that point, I had many doubts. I actually began studying with idea that I would either prove to myself - or disprove - that it was the way. I was open to either possibility at that time.
Intensive study has set my mind at ease that it is. However, the superficial way Christianity is taught and practiced by most who claim to be Christians had left me with large gaps as a younger person, and until I began to try to study for myself, answering the questions I had - and with the help of many people far more knowledgeable than I - I was pretty wishy washy that it was the way.
Most who claim to be Christians do not know the history of the church, the teachings that are consistent from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, the "big picture," as I call it. They can quote you doctrine from their particular denomination, often, but they do not really understand what the big picture message is, or what Christ actually taught. My feeling is that this is because most people want religion spoon fed to them, and don't want to take the time and effort to actually spend the time necessary to investigate what and why they believe. They just follow "x" faith because that's what their family has always done.
I think you are wise to ask questions, because unless and until your questions are resolved, you'll never be able to fully embrace any faith. Once your questions/doubts are resolved, then the issue of "faith" isn't such a big one. For me, anyway, once I understood better, learned more, and could see the big picture, the "having faith" part was easy. Those who would truly want to see you as a part of the faith would be happy to spend time answering questions, as that's how we all learn.
"Alter call conversions" - mostly for the benefit of those watching and because of the emotion of the moment - are IMO usually superficial and short-lived anyway. It takes time, study, and investigation for the faith to grow. As Paul said, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." It takes more than just listening to someone trying to convince you. At least it did for me.
Cur,
Your post reminds me of the adage, "The Lord takes care of those who take care of themselves." I couldn't agree more. It also reminds me of a joke
Seems there was this guy who lived on a flood plain. The flood waters started rising one day approaching his house, and the police came by to encourage people to leave. He told the officer, "The Lord will take care of me," so the officer left.
When the waters had risen to flood the first level of his house, he moved to the second floor. A neighbor floated by in a boat, encouraging the man to go with him. He replied, "The Lord will take care of me," so the neighbor left.
Finally, the waters flooded his second story, and he went to the roof. A helicopter was sent to rescue those still stranded. When the rescuer came down the rope, the man refused to leave, and told him, "The Lord will take care of me." So the rescuer left.
Finally the flood waters overtook the house, and the man drowned. The man went to heaven, and saw the Lord and asked Him, "Lord, why didn't you take care of me?"
The Lord answered, "Man, I sent you a police officer, a boat and a helicopter! What more did you want?"
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13141 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Thanks, Kathy. I do still have unresolved "issues" with Christianity, still a great deal of curiosity about how various kinds of Christians think and behave. There are some great Christians here on the board, and an interesting spectrum of beliefs and behaviors.
I probably won't ever become a Christian again (in the usual sense). But who knows!
BTW, I love that story of the man in the flood. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
I probably won't ever become a Christian again (in the usual sense). But who knows!
Christian, in the usual sense, (meaning the way that most people perceive and practice Christianity today) is probably not the right way, anyway. I told my pastor once that I had a problem with organized religion. He said, "Me too." Generally the masses don't have it right. Even Jesus agreed.
Quote:
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:14
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