Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
Cold is an issue, but I don't think it's all that big of an issue. Some
batteries need preheaters or warmers to operate at an ideal temp,
but those aren't big problems.
For some reason, many people seem to think that EVs won't work in
the cold. (That appears to include the major automakers such as
General Motors and Honda who are only leasing their electric cars in
California and Arizona.) However, electric cars can perform quite
well in the cold. The electric motor prefers to be cool, and cooling air
is blown through the electric motor in some EVs. The motor
controllers also require some cooling capability. Lead-acid batteries
do lose a lot of capacity when they are cold, but this is easily
remedied by keeping the batteries warm using insulation and
battery warmers.
GM's internal research showed that the EV1's range would be
reduced by as much as 50% for use in cold-weather states.
This was due chiefly to the effect of ambient temperature on both
the batteries and the special low rolling resistance tires.
So with no modifications some vehicles may lose 50% of their
range. But with some minor modifications, a battery heater or
warmer, the car might even work better do to better cooling of the
electric motor. Also for heating the battery compartment, the heater
could be electric or something simple like putting in a slow burning
charcoal heating rod once a day.
In Ukraine people in the markets use a box with a glass side and a
candle inside to display vegetables in winter markets. The candle
keeps everything toasty warm. It's a simple concept and not
something difficult, so cold shouldn't be a big issue for electric
vehicles, though automakers like to use it as an excuse.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
[quote="steam_cannon"]Cold is an issue, but I don't think it's all that big of an issue. Some
batteries need preheaters or warmers to operate at an ideal temp,
but those aren't big problems.
For some reason, many people seem to think that EVs won't work in
the cold. (That appears to include the major automakers such as
General Motors and Honda who are only leasing their electric cars in
California and Arizona.) quote]
Thanks.
While electric cars may not replace gas cars in 100% fungibility at least I could get to the store to see if they had some beans in that day.
Do you think they will make electric trucks to replace the big rigs? Or is it all going back to the railroads?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
allenwrench wrote:
You also brought up a question about cabin heat?
I guess we would be freezing in the car. A cabin heater would really suck down the juice.
Or is something in the works?
You mean you use the heater in the winter?
(In joke, my heater hasn't been working and it's not worth replacing it...)
Well regarding heaters for cars, there are several options:
* Is a heater needed? As long as it's not windy in a car and you
have your driving gloves on, a person can go without a heater.
Many taxis I rode in Ukraine in the winter didn't have heaters,
people survive.
* How much power does a heater really draw?
12 Volt electric heaters are presently available for cars. These
heaters use much less energy then is being used to drive the car.
So if the batteries are large enough to move the car up hills and up
to any speed, it follows that the batteries should have enough juice
to heat the car. Also like a regular car, it might be possible to draw
heat from the electric motor to heat the cabin area. But even if the
heater is just drawing directly off the batteries, it should work ok.
(1100 BTU car heater)
* Chemical heaters?
Another thing, you could have a heater that is completely separate
from the battery system. The car could use a heat exchanger and a
chemical heater to heat the cabin and perhaps to run on low to
keep the batteries warm. This would use really very little fuel and
could be fairly efficient. (I think this is the best option.)
(Safe Winter Tent Heater)
Last edited by steam_cannon on Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
The volumes they produce are low, but the trucks are already in production.
Given the limited range of the batteries these seem to be of best use in urban areas. So we will still need the railways and canals/rivers/coastal shipping. _________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
allenwrench wrote:
While electric cars may not replace gas cars in 100% fungibility at least
I could get to the store to see if they had some beans in that day.
Or in the future they might invent a device to talk over long distances...
I'm joking a bit because the idea of moving tons of steel miles to
check if the store has eggs or beans, will probably be an antiquated
concept in the future.
allenwrench wrote:
Do you think they will make electric trucks to replace the big rigs?
Or is it all going back to the railroads?
Rail is a better bet, but there may be larger electric transport for a time.
Really depends on how things play out. Most societies that have less energy then we have, use rail.
The most important thing to consider regarding expanding electric fleets:
* How much energy does it take to produce an electric car?
* How much mountainside to produce a battery?
* Were will the power come from to recharge this car?
These are all big problems but this last one is the biggest and gets
into a lot of issues discussed further on some of the other threads.
Here is a long and interesting thread started by The_Toecutter
getting into these issues:
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
something also to consider is that although a cold battery really sucks for power, batteries do generate heat when they discharge (about 5%). Normally not significant when talking about a portable radio or flashlight, but its a pretty big deal when your discharging 20 - 50KW. This will give you a 1 to 2 KW heater just from the pack alone (not to mention another 2 to 5KWs from the motor).
Keeping your battery pack cool is a bigger issue than keeping it warm.
GM not leasing electric vehicles in cold climates is just blowing smoke up everyone's A**. And even if it was an issue the solution is trivial.
Ultimately Lithium batteries are rated down to -40C and are a much more likely candidate for an Auto batter pack than NiMHs (as you can see by the fact that the Smith vehicles above are LiFe batteries, which are also cheaper than NiMHs).
btw, just to note, those 12V car heaters are useless and are barely able to defog your windshield (let alone defrost it). To keep my wife from idling the car to warm it up, I've set up a couple of heaters for her. Anything less than 500W is useless.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
FoxV wrote:
Keeping your battery pack cool is a bigger issue than keeping it warm.
Sounds like drawing hot air from the battery compartment or a heat
sink in the battery compartment could work...
FoxV wrote:
btw, just to note, those 12V car heaters are useless and are barely
able to defog your windshield (let alone defrost it). To keep my wife
from idling the car to warm it up, I've set up a couple of heaters for
her. Anything less than 500W is useless.
Good point, my suggestion was is a little on the underpowered side,
but I think an electric heater is still an option.
FoxV wrote:
GM not leasing electric vehicles in cold climates is
just blowing smoke up everyone's A**. And even
if it was an issue the solution is trivial.[/b]
The volumes they produce are low, but the trucks are already in production.
Given the limited range of the batteries these seem to be of best use in urban areas.
So we will still need the railways and canals/rivers/coastal shipping.
"your lead acid battery will only deliver about half the range you'd
normally get, unless you have a heating system to keep it warm,
which will then allow you full capacity."
"What ancillaries do you want? Heating, air conditioning, high output
stereo system? All these things add cost. You can choose to run them
off a 12v battery and have to recharge that individual battery with
your battery pack, or choose to use a DC to DC converter so that you
don’t have to worry about an extra battery."
Joined: Dec 06, 2005 Posts: 885 Location: Stopped at the border.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
Don't hand me that 'you can heat your car in a cold climate with a little electric heater' bs. I have lived in some of the coldest American climates and tried to use one of those red and black things pictured above, it was cold in my car with that crappy thing. Heat, as far as I am concerned, is one of the biggest issues when it comes to electric cars. No, it doesn't ruin the concept, even if the heat thing can't be overcome. _________________ "Hope encourages men to take risks; men in a strong position may follow her without ruin, if not without loss. But when they stake all that they have to the last coin (for she is a spendthrift), she reveals her real self in the hour of failure."
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Electric cars...how do they perform in freezing temps?
evilgenius wrote:
Don't hand me that 'you can heat your car in a cold climate with a little
electric heater' bs. I have lived in some of the coldest American
climates and tried to use one of those red and black things pictured
above, it was cold in my car with that crappy thing. Heat, as far as I
am concerned, is one of the biggest issues when it comes to electric
cars. No, it doesn't ruin the concept, even if the heat thing can't be
overcome.
If it makes you feel any better I've replaced that image with a
beefier off the shelf 1100 BTU heater.
But you should know if you read a little further that electric heaters can
have a much higher output depending on the cars design and
battery capacity. And that's in addition to the other options listed.
I'm wondering, do you have an electric car with a heating problem?
Where's this attitude coming from? Worried people in the future might have cold butts?
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(1100 BTU car heater)
(Safe Winter Tent Heater)
