Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: "The era of cheap energy is over"
That is a verbatim quote from CNN today. They were talking about gas prices on "Issue Number 1" (a daily feature they have been running at noon every day for about a month now) and one of the analysists actually said "The era of cheap energy is over."
Of course, the official party line is still "Oh, it's the speculators driving up the price", but the frankness of that one statement just blew me away. _________________ The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
If we were to switch to mass produced breeder reactor technology, the era of cheap energy would continue.
Problem is there are a whole lot of eco-luddites who want everything to be powered by solar and wind energy, and perhaps magical fairy dust.
Problem is renewables CAN'T CUT IT. They can neither produce the power at a cheap enough price, nor can they provide the reliability to maintain civilization.
They are willing to reduce the expenses of their lifestyle to try and help the planet, and they want to force everyone else to as well.
Problem is a lot of people can't afford the economic cuts these people want to make. They are already living on less and to go down on the economic latter is to starve.
So in effect, many of the eco-luddites are advocating mass dieoffs, and in many cases when dealing with poorer countries, genocide.
Many of them oppose nuclear power, which is the only reasonable alternative that can provide the power in needed amounts to sustain modern agriculture and civilization.
So to oppose nuclear is to oppose civilization. To oppose civilization is to advocate dieoff. To advocate dieoff is to advocate murder and genocide.
Cheap energy isn't over if we use nuclear. Those who oppose nuclear are opposing YOUR SURVIVAL. I could say more but I don't want to be charged with inciting a riot.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Between 1971 and 1982 the energy contribution from a gallon of petroleum product produced from US fields fell by 4.8% per year. We are either now at that point globally, or soon will be!
Joined: Nov 27, 2004 Posts: 202 Location: Federal City, USA
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Kylon wrote:
Quote:
If we were to switch to mass produced breeder reactor technology, the era of cheap energy would continue.
Problem is there are a whole lot of eco-luddites who want everything to be powered by solar and wind energy, and perhaps magical fairy dust.
Problem is renewables CAN'T CUT IT. They can neither produce the power at a cheap enough price, nor can they provide the reliability to maintain civilization.
They are willing to reduce the expenses of their lifestyle to try and help the planet, and they want to force everyone else to as well.
Problem is a lot of people can't afford the economic cuts these people want to make. They are already living on less and to go down on the economic latter is to starve.
So in effect, many of the eco-luddites are advocating mass dieoffs, and in many cases when dealing with poorer countries, genocide.
Many of them oppose nuclear power, which is the only reasonable alternative that can provide the power in needed amounts to sustain modern agriculture and civilization.
So to oppose nuclear is to oppose civilization. To oppose civilization is to advocate dieoff. To advocate dieoff is to advocate murder and genocide.
Cheap energy isn't over if we use nuclear. Those who oppose nuclear are opposing YOUR SURVIVAL. I could say more but I don't want to be charged with inciting a riot.
If energy were our only problem, you might be on to something there. Problem is, ecologically our current consumption rates of everything are just plain old unsustainable. To promote the lifestyles that got us in this mess, and to promote the exponential increase in population and consumption that follows is absolute madness.
By the way, what's the turn around time to "switch over" to all these non-existent mass breeder plants, anyway? Maybe you accidently left that out. _________________ Where there once were hopes and dreams, now there is smoke and rubble. And zombies.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Kylon wrote:
So to oppose nuclear is to oppose civilization. To oppose civilization is to advocate dieoff. To advocate dieoff is to advocate murder and genocide.
Cheap energy isn't over if we use nuclear. Those who oppose nuclear are opposing YOUR SURVIVAL. I could say more but I don't want to be charged with inciting a riot.
YEAH.... thats what I'm talking about!
Quote:
Bluto: What the Fark happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: Let's do it.
Bluto: LET'S DO IT!
...Animal House (1978)
_________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
BigTex wrote:
I'm not against building more nuclear plants.
It's not perfect, but it beats coal by a long shot, IMO.
Maybe the French could build us one as a gift to get us going, sort of like a Statue of Liberty kind of gesture.
Probably the number 1 most asinine argument I've ever heard against nuclear was the statement: "It takes to long to build a nuke plant, 10 years."
*facepalm* They make it seem like you have to complete 1 first before you start on the next.
There are certain things the French do right. Perfume, high fashion, and nuclear power. almost 0 to 80% in a matter of 25 years. Anybody who says nuclear does not scale up just show them this chart.
///
and yes a nuke plant as a gift would be appreciated right now.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Duende said:
Quote:
By the way, what's the turn around time to "switch over" to all these non-existent mass breeder plants, anyway? Maybe you accidently left that out.
The turn around time on new technology has historically been about 40 years. Also, remember we have to rebuild the old technology that was based on oil.
If the energy equations that come out of US oil field studies are applicable to the global energy scenario, and there are several theoretical reasons why they should be, the world’s economies are now, or soon will be declining by about 5% per year. That decline will continue for at least a decade.
Since no Plan B has been implemented, or even considered, it could easily take a century for another highly technological society to arise.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
cube said:
Quote:
Probably the number 1 most asinine argument I've ever heard against nuclear was the statement: "It takes to long to build a nuke plant, 10 years."
65% of the assets now backing the US dollar are worthless financial waste paper basket trash. (Read DantesPeak’s post in the Housing Bubble thread.) The credit markets are frozen, the banking system is insolvent and the US Treasury is very close to losing its AAA credit rating. The federal deficit just exploded:
Quote:
The federal deficit hit an all-time high of $311 billion for the first half of this budget year, reports the Treasury Department, up from $162 billion in the prior year!
Besides the immense financial barriers that have arisen to prevent the construction of enough nuclear plants to compensate for fossil fuels’ decline, we have huge technical problems to also overcome. Of the 106 plants built in the US, not one was ever completed within budget or on schedule. There is no reason to believe that we are any better at building nukes today than we were 35 years ago, since that was the last time we built one!
Even though we desperately need new nuclear power producing capabilities, we’ll probably have to wait until the next century to get very many of them. Any other scenario probably fits into the delusional fantasy category!
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
shortonoil wrote:
...
65% of the assets now backing the US dollar are worthless financial waste paper basket trash. (Read DantesPeak’s post in the Housing Bubble thread.) The credit markets are frozen, the banking system is insolvent and the US Treasury is very close to losing its AAA credit rating. The federal deficit just exploded:
If you're trying to say the USA is or will become bankrupt very soon. You won't get any argument from me. I'm convinced!
shortonoil wrote:
...
Besides the immense financial barriers that have arisen to prevent the construction of enough nuclear plants to compensate for fossil fuels’ decline, we have huge technical problems to also overcome. Of the 106 plants built in the US, not one was ever completed within budget or on schedule. There is no reason to believe that we are any better at building nukes today than we were 35 years ago, since that was the last time we built one!
Even though we desperately need new nuclear power producing capabilities, we’ll probably have to wait until the next century to get very many of them. Any other scenario probably fits into the delusional fantasy category!
I'm simply saying the argument that it takes 10 years to build a nuke plant is a stupid argument. It's suggesting that nuclear power cannot be scaled up within a reasonable amount of time which is false. *points to previous chart of French electrical power* However saying that the USA will not build new nuke plants because we're short on cash, now that's a completely different statement. Making the statement that something is not viable is a totally different thing then saying something will not happen because of financial reasons.
*switching gears*
What can the USA do right now?
I think the best thing that Americans can do right now -no- it's not investing in public transit. It's accepting the fact that we're going to lose our position as the world military super power and make readjustments to our financial expenditures to reflect this new position.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Kylon wrote:
Cheap energy isn't over if we use nuclear. Those who oppose nuclear are opposing YOUR SURVIVAL. I could say more but I don't want to be charged with inciting a riot.
The problem is that you do not understand that energy (cheap energy) is not the only problem. If we switched (over decades, if we have decades) to nuclear. then the that would not save your society. If it happened quickly enough, and other limits did not strike, in the meantime, it would only delay society's demise, not stop it forever.
Nuclear uses finite resources, and only addresses the energy issue, so it is not a panacea. If we don't grasp the nettle and move to sustainability, then nuclear certainly isn't going to save us.
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 358 Location: Holland, United Kingdom (of the seven Netherlands)
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
cube wrote:
I'm simply saying the argument that it takes 10 years to build a nuke plant is a stupid argument. It's suggesting that nuclear power cannot be scaled up within a reasonable amount of time which is false. *points to previous chart of French electrical power*
I'm not convinced. If I'm not mistaken then the french started their research in the sixties. It takes at least 10 years to build a nuclear power plant and this one still needs further R&D first.
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: "The era of cheap energy is over"
Gerben wrote:
cube wrote:
I'm simply saying the argument that it takes 10 years to build a nuke plant is a stupid argument. It's suggesting that nuclear power cannot be scaled up within a reasonable amount of time which is false. *points to previous chart of French electrical power*
I'm not convinced.
I've already mentioned that the USA is for all practical purposes bankrupt.
There's no point in debating something you don't have the money to buy anyways, so this is a mute issue. IMHO
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