Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
It seems like a contradicton in terms, but apparenlty Bombardier's Q400 aircraft offers a 30% reduction in fuel consumption per passenger than typical small jets. It is even as fuel efficient as the automobile at this rate.
This could be a very efffective competitive edge for airlines as fueld prices go up even more. And, it flies at about 85% of the speed of jets.
See Globe and Mail: "Bombardier's Greener Turboprop"
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
-'cept it's a turboprop.
The regression of civilization has begun, in earnest.
Quote:
"In terms of economics, environment and profitability, our Q400 aircraft sales are increasing dramatically as the industry moves forward on the path of sustainability," said Rod Williams, Vice-President, Commercial Operations, Bombardier Regional Aircraft.
"Sustainability" - I do not think that word means what he thinks it means. _________________ “I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” George Carlin
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
-'cept it's a turboprop.
There are many applications in which turbofans are not the best choice. The practice of sticking one on every plane, regardless of type/function, will disappear once people realise this.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
-'cept it's a turboprop.
The regression of civilization has begun, in earnest.
I'm not sure how you conclude that a turboprop is a regression from pure jet engines. Seems to me the trade off is in wasting a lot of energy with a jet in order to go a little faster, or using that energy much more efficiently to turn a prop. I suppose it's a regression if you see progress as being about trying to maximize waste. Its a regression in the same way that the Toyota was a regression over a Buick in the 70's.
I ride a q400 back and forth to Seattle every week, and it's a very nice little plane. Actually has bigger seats than a 757. It's a bit noisy, especially in rows 7 and 8, but seriously, noise canceling headphones are cheap compared to airfare. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
Don't forget the last air travel breakthrough that never happened.
There's nothing wrong with inefficient airplanes that government handouts can't fix. _________________ People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement & cannibalism.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
They don't fly the Concorde anymore because supersonic passenger jets never became economically viable. If we have to go back to turboprops, so be it. I wouldn't want to have to eat the losses of decommissioning the old jet fleet, however.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
mos6507 wrote:
If we have to go back to turboprops, so be it.
You guys are aware that the turboprop is a newer invention than the jet right?
As I understand it, the advantage of turboprops is mostly in aircraft too small to effectively use a high bypass turbofan. A high bypass turbofan accomplishes the same thing, but it requires an engine that would be too large for a commuter plane. I don't think you need to worry about the 757's sprouting propellers. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3278 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
mos6507 wrote:
They don't fly the Concorde anymore because supersonic passenger jets never became economically viable. If we have to go back to turboprops, so be it. I wouldn't want to have to eat the losses of decommissioning the old jet fleet, however.
I would be willing to bet that many of the newest turbofans would do well to adopt that GE propfan engine that was developed when the 1980's made air travle uneconomic. When oil fell in 86 the project was cancelled. Propfan 7J7 cacelled 1992
Quote:
The Boeing 7J7 was a short- to medium-range airliner proposed by the United States aircraft manufacturer Boeing in the 1980s. It would have carried 150 passengers and was touted as the successor to the successful Boeing 727.[1] It was initially planned to enter service in 1992.[1] This was intended as a highly fuel-efficient aircraft employing new technologies, but it was cancelled when the price of oil dropped during the 1980s.
and
Quote:
two General Electric GE36 UDF rear-mounted advanced technology contra-rotating unducted fan engines.
The sum of all these features promised better fuel consumption by more than 60% compared to any existing large passenger aircraft technology at the time. "Efficiency" was the key theme. The 7J7 was to have a twin-aisle[1] (2+2+2) seating configuration, giving an unprecedented wide and spacious cabin for its class, with no passenger more than one seat from an aisle.
_________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
smallpoxgirl wrote:
emersonbiggins wrote:
-'cept it's a turboprop.
The regression of civilization has begun, in earnest.
I'm not sure how you conclude that a turboprop is a regression from pure jet engines. ... Its a regression in the same way that the Toyota was a regression over a Buick in the 70's.
It is a small sign of regression if we suddenly must become mindful of resource use over concerns of convenience, luxury or simply appearance. Having wildly inefficient CRJs ferrying passengers from Omaha to Kansas City might, indeed, be considered the apogee of the cheap oil civilization; whether or not 5 minutes are saved versus this new turboprop is irrelevant - one will be seen to be "superior" to the other.
Here's hoping that a societal paradigm shift looks at avgas-guzzling jets with disdain one day. _________________ “I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” George Carlin
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
Having wildly inefficient CRJs ferrying passengers from Omaha to Kansas City might, indeed, be considered the apogee of the cheap oil civilization;
Pfft. If waste is the apogee, nothing will ever top this thing:
_________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
I have noticed in flying JetBlue, that their flight times seem longer than the competitors. I wonder if they are in essence dialing down their flight speeds to reduce costs. We know from physics that drag increases with the square of velocity, so even dropping 5% or 10% from the speed could have a big savings to the bottom line.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
There is a cruising speed above & below which the airplane is less efficient. They're padding the schedule to get more on-time points. If there is a revolution, our executives probably will ride around in Saturn V's. _________________ People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement & cannibalism.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
smallpoxgirl wrote:
emersonbiggins wrote:
Having wildly inefficient CRJs ferrying passengers from Omaha to Kansas City might, indeed, be considered the apogee of the cheap oil civilization;
Pfft. If waste is the apogee, nothing will ever top this thing:
Saturn V image
Yes, I forgot! _________________ “I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” George Carlin
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
heroineworshipper wrote:
Don't forget the last air travel breakthrough that never happened.
There's nothing wrong with inefficient airplanes that government handouts can't fix.
Who knows, we may see it one day. One could pitch extreme luxury v/s speed to the rich, and use the examples of new materials, computer design and control to allay fears of any modern Hindenburgs/USS Akrons/Macons.
Don't count it out just yet.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Aviation - new turboprop is 30% more efficient
Slowpoke wrote:
Who knows, we may see it one day. One could pitch extreme luxury v/s speed to the rich, and use the examples of new materials, computer design and control to allay fears of any modern Hindenburgs/USS Akrons/Macons.
Don't count it out just yet.
Yes, but can technology overcome peak helium? _________________ “I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” George Carlin
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