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Peakoil.com :: View topic - Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer
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Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer
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Homesteader
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Just a few links on the "2050 Canadian Breadbasket" from wikipedia on the part that wraps around the southern end of James Bay. The majority of the rest of the "2050 Breadbasket" is essentially the same.

James Bay Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bay

Snip: James Bay represents the southern extent of the Arctic Archipelago Marine ecozone, while the coastal areas are primarily in the Hudson Plains, whereas the northeastern coast bordering Quebec is in the Taiga Shield ecozone. The eastern shores of the bay form the western edge of the Canadian Shield in Quebec. As such, the terrain here is rocky and hilly with boreal forest. The western shore is characterised by broad tundra lowlands that are an extension of the Hudson Bay Lowlands. Its vegetation is mostly muskeg.

Taiga Shield Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga_Shield

snip: The ecozone covers almost all of the eastern area of the Northwest Territories, a tiny corner of northeastern Alberta, a narrow strip of all northern Saskatchewan and northwestern Manitoba, as well as all some parts of southern Nunavut. Here, it is interrupted by Hudson Bay, where it abuts with the marine ecozone of the Arctic Archipelago Marine, and resumes on the eastern shores of Hudson Bay on the coast of Quebec, where it continues in a consistently-wide strip towards the ocean, encompassing all but a small portion of Labrador. Is is one of the largest ecozones in Canada, covering 1.3 million square kilometres.

Muskeg link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskeg

snips: Muskeg is an acidic soil type common in arctic and boreal areas, although it is found in other northern climates as well. Muskeg is more-or-less synonymous with bogland but muskeg is the standard term in Canada and Alaska (while bog is more common elsewhere). Large tracts of this soil existing in Siberia may be called muskeg or bogland interchangeably. Muskeg consists of dead plants in various states of decomposition (as peat), ranging from fairly intact sphagnum moss, to sedge peat, to highly decomposed muck.

Although at first glance muskeg resembles a plain covered with short grasses, a closer look will reveal a bizarre and almost unearthly landscape. Small stands of stunted and often dead trees that vaguely resemble Bonsai trees grow where land protrudes above the water table, with small pools of water stained a dark red scattered about. Its benign grassland appearance invites the unaware to walk on it; however, traveling through muskeg is a very strange and dangerous experience to the unaccustomed. Muskeg can grow directly on top of bodies of water, especially small ponds and streams. Because of the water beneath, the muskeg surface sometimes ripples when walked upon.

Muskeg can be a significant impediment to transportation. During the 1870s, muskeg in Northern Ontario was reported to have swallowed a railroad engine whole when a track was laid on muskeg instead of clearing down to bedrock. Many other instances have been reported of heavy construction equipment vanishing into muskeg in the spring as the frozen muskeg on which the vehicle was parked thawed. Construction in muskeg-laden areas sometimes requires the complete removal of the soil and filling with gravel. If the muskeg is not completely cleared to bedrock then its high water content will cause buckling and distortion from winter freezing, much like permafrost.

Boreal Shield:
During the last ice age, which ended 10 000 years ago, the advance of glaciers is repeatedly plucked and scoured the Shield, carving striations in the bedrock and carrying large boulders many kilometers. In retreat, glaciers blanketed much of the landscape with gravel, sand and other glacial deposits. The many poorly drained depressions left behind, as well as natural faults in the bedrock, now form the millions of lakes, pondes and wetlands that give this ecozone its distinctive character.

Where the scouring effects of glaciation were intense, bare rock outcrops predominate, dotted by colourful arrays of lichen and ground-hugging shrubs.

Cool temperatures, a short growing season, frequent forest fires, and acidic soils challenge plant life in the ecozone. In spite of this, almost 88% of the area is forested by a few highly adaptable trees, such as Black Spruce, White Spruce, Jack Pine and Balsam Fir. Black Spruce, the most common species,



Interactive Ecozones Map of Canada.

A really informative site. Click on the zone choices on the left and see where they are located in Canada. The ecozones that are encompassed by the "2050 Breadbasket" are Hudson Plains, Boreal Shield, and Taiga Shield

Link: http://tinyurl.com/54zw9c
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mos6507
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

steam_cannon wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
Cid seems to wants to scapegoat the US for the world's problems.
Shhyyaaa, like that's sooo unfair of him. You should like totally follow
him around and correct him. serves him right!


mos6507 wrote:
Cid has just chosen to ignore the damage done by any other actors
besides those on his personal crap-list.
Ya know, even if he were blindfolded tossing darts at a dartboard of world influences...

Dartboard of world influences:
Quote:
Replying to "Damn Arabs" emails
http://peakoil.com/fortopic39038.html





So oil consumption is the only metric to use in judging a country?

So Taliban-era Afghanistan was higher up on the moral totem pole because they didn't consume any oil, even though they were executing people in soccer stadiums?
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steam_cannon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

mos6507 wrote:
So oil consumption is the only metric to use in judging a country?
Nope, just one. Just like somebody creepily following someone around
is just one thing stalkers do. Razz
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anagami
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

steam_cannon wrote:
(...)Shhyyaaa, like that's sooo unfair of him. You should like totally follow
him around and correct him. serves him right!

(...)


wtf is the point of that photo?! o_0
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steam_cannon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

zensui wrote:
steam_cannon wrote:
(...)Shhyyaaa, like that's sooo unfair of him. You should like totally follow
him around and correct him. serves him right!

(...)


wtf is the point of that photo?! o_0

Mos's behavior is dumb. I wrote that comment using a language
pattern dumbass highschool girls use and I included a random public
domain image of some shallow looking girls. The comment combines
the use of sarcasm and play acting that only a bunch of dumb children
would agree with him.

Example: Shhyyaaa, like, ya know, do you like get it now? Like Duh!
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steam_cannon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Homesteader wrote:
Just a few links on the "2050 Canadian Breadbasket" from wikipedia
on the part that wraps around the southern end of James Bay.
The majority of the rest of the "2050 Breadbasket" is essentially
the same.
That's an informative post, however that still doesn't change the
fact that the graphic we are discussing is a quick and simplified
illustration not intended for using how you seem to be.

But it is interesting to think about how the northern lands will change
as the climate changes. The boggy land you're describing is boggy
due to poor drainage due to permafrost layers. Presently climate
change is causing increased thawing of deep permafrost causing
drainage to occur. Eventually many of these bogs may drain and
become much more solid. I'm not saying we will be able to build on
them or farm on them, but becoming more solid is probable.

About your argument, it seems like you're saying the article
can't be right because they don't have a big sign on the map saying
lots of people will die. Well the articles point still remains that
Canada will be gaining a few percent arable land and we will be
losing a few or many percent of arable land.
And even if the only
extra wheat grown is in flower pots, well I don't see any promises
on that map or in that article.

So far all you've proved is that map implies food will be harder to grow,
so you've proved something everybody knows. eusa_clap
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billg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Quote:
I wrote that comment using a language pattern dumbass highschool girls use and I included a random public domain image of some shallow looking girls. The comment combines the use of sarcasm and play acting that only a bunch of dumb children would agree with him.


Posting a picture of two young girls you don't know and calling them "dumbasses" and shallow-looking is stooping pretty low IMO. How do you think those girls would feel if you said that to their faces?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

... or maybe the girls' parents.
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Homesteader
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

steam_cannon wrote:
Homesteader wrote:
Just a few links on the "2050 Canadian Breadbasket" from wikipedia
on the part that wraps around the southern end of James Bay.
The majority of the rest of the "2050 Breadbasket" is essentially
the same.
That's an informative post, however that still doesn't change the
fact that the graphic we are discussing is a quick and simplified
illustration not intended for using how you seem to be.

But it is interesting to think about how the northern lands will change
as the climate changes. The boggy land you're describing is boggy
due to poor drainage due to permafrost layers. Presently climate
change is causing increased thawing of deep permafrost causing
drainage to occur. Eventually many of these bogs may drain and
become much more solid. I'm not saying we will be able to build on
them or farm on them, but becoming more solid is probable.

About your argument, it seems like you're saying the article
can't be right because they don't have a big sign on the map saying
lots of people will die. Well the articles point still remains that
Canada will be gaining a few percent arable land and we will be
losing a few or many percent of arable land.
And even if the only
extra wheat grown is in flower pots, well I don't see any promises
on that map or in that article.

So far all you've proved is that map implies food will be harder to grow,
so you've proved something everybody knows. eusa_clap


The blue shaded region is "region viable for wheat in 2050" according to the map legend. That isn't my interpretation. Don't take my word for it.Take a college level soils course (which I have) or talk to a farmer (my wifes uncle farms 5,000 acres in IA) any farmer, about the likelihood of farming on drained muskeg or hills of glacial till.

The breadbasket isn't going to move north. The map is not a little bit bullshit it is 99.9% bullshit. What ever farmland is lost in the current breadbasket isn't going to be made up to the north.

I didn't even touch on the Alaska portion of blue. All north of the Alaska range, much of it in the Kuskokwim River drainage. I've been there, flown into Aniak. Pick a name out of the directory for Aniak and give them a call. Ask them what the commercial wheat farming prospects look like up and down the river 30-40 years out. Never mind that it is far beyond any kind of road system. dontknow
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

billg wrote:
Posting a picture of two young girls you don't know and calling them
"dumbasses" and shallow-looking is stooping pretty low IMO. How do
you think those girls would feel if you said that to their faces?

eastbay wrote:
... or maybe the girls' parents.

As I said, public domain images of human beings. Do you have trouble
viewing children and not thinking of abuse? Anyway I wasn't trying to
imply those particular girls are dumb, just stating the obvious that
there are many dumb people and making a dramatic example using
high school characters.

Find something more useful to complain about. Rolling Eyes
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Zardoz
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

mos6507 wrote:
...Cid seems to wants to scapegoat the US for the world's problems...

As he should, of course. You're kidding yourself if you think we haven't been Public Enemy Number One, by a ton.

What, you've forgotten that we installed a virulently anti-biosphere administration twice in a row? Do you actually think we're the good guys or something? We let BushCo have their way because we want them to. We think it's our divine right and privilege to crap in our nest.

Cid couldn't be more correct.
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Cid_Yama
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Flushing of multi-year sea ice from the Arctic basin

The image below is a low-resolution reproduction of a sequence of satellite images of Arctic ice this past fall and winter. The sequence runs in a continuous loop from October 01, 2007, to March 15, 2008. A link to the high-resolution video file is provided below.

Note the stream of multi-year ice flowing out of the Arctic basin down the east coast of Greenland at one o'clock in the image. As of the middle of March, most of the basin, including the pole itself, appears to be covered only by seasonal ice.

http://www.homerdixon.com/download/arctic_flushing.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Homesteader wrote:
The blue shaded region is "region viable for wheat in 2050"
according to the map legend. That isn't my interpretation.
Temperature-wise, it's viable for wheat. Did you read the "map is
simplified" disclaimers in the article, reviewed the study, poked
around a little. Or maybe you haven't even read the article?
I'm not joking or trying to be mean, seriously did you read it?

Homesteader wrote:
Don't take my word for it. Take a college level soils course (which I have)
You went to college, that's good. Knowledge is good.


Homesteader wrote:
or talk to a farmer (my wifes uncle farms 5,000 acres in IA) any
farmer, about the likelihood of farming on drained muskeg or hills of glacial till.
I don't expect men to drain the lakes, as I said nature is already doing it.

Arctic Lakes Are Disappearing
http://www.physorg.com/news4378.html


Homesteader wrote:
The breadbasket isn't going to move north.
* You do know that wheat is presently grown in some parts of Canada?

* You do agree that a longer growing season will probably mean higher
wheat production in Canada?

* You live on this planet, right?


Homesteader wrote:
What ever farmland is lost in the current breadbasket isn't going to
be made up to the north.
That's what the study suggests, I wonder why you keep repeating
it like you discovered this idea.

Homesteader wrote:
I didn't even touch on the Alaska portion of blue. All north of the
Alaska range, much of it in the Kuskokwim River drainage. I've been
there, flown into Aniak. Pick a name out of the directory for Aniak
and give them a call. Ask them what the commercial wheat farming
prospects look like up and down the river 30-40 years out.
Perhaps on your hiking trip you missed a few things.
Here's a study on growing crops in Alaska.

Agronomic Crops for Alaska
http://www.uaf.edu/salrm/gbg/pubs/Notes/24.html

Homesteader wrote:
Never mind that it is far beyond any kind of road system.
At one time our present farm land didn't have any roads to them
before they were developed. Stick to meaningful criticisms and so will I.
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mos6507
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:32 am    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

steam_cannon wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
So oil consumption is the only metric to use in judging a country?
Nope, just one. Just like somebody creepily following someone around
is just one thing stalkers do. Razz


If I'm a cyberstalker, that must make you Cid's cyber-bodyguard. You've responded to my posts directed towards Cid far more than Cid has. In fact, Cid has probably posted more links to articles than he ever has posted original thoughts of his own.
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mos6507
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: Arctic Ice may 'melt away' this summer Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Zardoz wrote:

What, you've forgotten that we installed a virulently anti-biosphere administration twice in a row?


Speak for yourself. I didn't vote for him. Did you?

Zardoz wrote:

Do you actually think we're the good guys or something?


That's just it. Trying to cast the situation like a game of cowboys and indians is childish, and accomplishes nothing.
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