Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
"Toshiba has developed a new class of micro size nuclear reactors designed to power individual apartment buildings or city blocks, according to a report on Next Energy News.
The new reactor, which is only 20 feet by six feet, would give people independence from power companies, with the ability to generate their own power.
The 200 kilowatt micro reactor reportedly uses no control rods to initiate the reaction, while new technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons."
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 620 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Denny wrote:
"Toshiba has developed a new class of micro size nuclear reactors designed to power individual apartment buildings or city blocks, according to a report on Next Energy News.
The new reactor, which is only 20 feet by six feet, would give people independence from power companies, with the ability to generate their own power.
The 200 kilowatt micro reactor reportedly uses no control rods to initiate the reaction, while new technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons."
Just have to get a price on that little bugger... and some fissionables... hmmm... permits, I'll bet... And is it direct conversion or steam turbine? Do I need a water source for cooling? Towers?
I'm not trying to ridicule, but again, this is another "great idea" that I'll be very impressed to ever see one in commercial application outside the country of development. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Denny,
Thanks for the link. I really like this and this is the kind of technological advance the world needs! If this can do what they claim, it could revolutionize electrical generation. I know very little about nuclear, but how do they deal with spent uranium etc. Can anyone educate me on this? What are the issues for a system like this? Is there any concern of nuclear theft? a "meltdown" etc?
I'm sure most big manufacturers and retailers would be very interested in this system.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Quote:
The Toshiba 4S has been described in some promotional articles as a nuclear battery, but as attractive as the plant is, that is too simplistic a description. The plant is a small, sodium cooled fast reactor with a rather technologically advanced, compact steam turbine secondary system.
The core heat source for this plant is quite compact; it is only about 0.7 meters in diameter and about 2 meters tall. This section of the plant would be at the bottom of the 30 meter deep excavation inside a sealed cylinder, a location that helps to provide the driving force needed for natural circulation cooling and that provides an impressive level of nuclear material security. The active core material is a metallic alloy of uranium, plutonium and zirconium. The material has been extensively tested but it has not been commercially produced and used as a reactor fuel.
The 30 year lifetime for the core is achieved through a variety of mechanisms. The core is a metallic alloy cooled by sodium and the overall reactivity is controlled through the use of a moveable reflector instead of neutron absorbing control rods. Because of these features, which differ from those of conventional water cooled reactor technology, more of the neutrons that are released by fission either cause a fission or are absorbed by fertile materials like uranium 238. When fertile materials absorb neutrons, they become fissile and useful as fuel the next time that they are struck by a neutron. It is unclear from available technical materials whether or not the 4S actually produces more fuel than it uses - that is, whether or not it is a breeder reactor - but it is clear that the efficient use of neutrons for converting non fuel materials into fuel materials helps to increase its projected lifetime.
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 434 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Now this is an interesting idea. I can't see one in the house though, but in a shed about 1000 meters out in the back paddock. _________________ "That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top, well I say, <censored by peakoil.com> floats"
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Better yet, breeder reactors make plutonium. Forget blowing the thing up. Terrorists can steal the fuel and make a backpack nuke.
I'd be more worried about the thing blowing itself up than terrorists. Liquid lithium isn't exactly stable stuff. Certainly not within the normal skill set of Bob the maintenance guy. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2196 Location: Arkansas
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
I can easily see gov'ts and big institutions using these things without any problems. I'm sure most military basis would love to be able to get off the grid and generate their own power. In fact, I'm sure the militaries of the world would be some of the first purchasers of the technology, so basis could maintain power even if the grid were taken down. Plus, they provide their own security. Various gov't institutions would love these too for all the same reasons.
Further, I can see large manufactures using these things with no problem. Most could also provide the necessary security. They could easily be used to power refineries etc, which, with all the other flammables, would not become any more dangerous.
Further, other countries like China, Middle East, Russia, go green Germany, etc will probably use these as a solution to all their power concerns.
I see this as a promising fix that many will jump on.
Terrorism and safety are issues that can be dealt with, lack of NG and oil cannot.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1935 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
Ludi wrote:
Neat! A terrorist could just put a little explosive near it and ka-blammo!
Or does 24/7 high-quality security come with each unit?
Not just "terrorists" (and by that term, I presume you mean brown skinned gentlemen from countries with lots of oil), but also white supremacists and other disgruntled Americans with a penchant for shooting up their neighbours, schoolmates and shopping malls, jealous boyfriends on prozac, tree hugging neurotic Westerners with a taste for tribal clothes, shopping and eco-fundamentalism and little boys with ambitions to be the next Einsteins, and why, the list of risks is endless! _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
seahorse wrote:
They could easily be used to power refineries etc, which, with all the other flammables, would not become any more dangerous.
You don't see a problem with having things prone to exploding in the vicinity of things filled with radioactive material? Then just for fun we have an exceedingly dangerous flammable material for a coolant to endangers both the refinery and the reactor. I just hope that refinery is upwind from your house not mine when it catches fire sends up a giant plume of radioactive smoke 300 feet into the air. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
I just had to tell my dad about this - he's convinced we'll all be driving around cars running on nuclear fuel pellets in 15 years or less . This doesn't make his prediction any more real, but it is an interesting development. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
americandream wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Neat! A terrorist could just put a little explosive near it and ka-blammo!
Or does 24/7 high-quality security come with each unit?
Not just "terrorists" (and by that term, I presume you mean brown skinned gentlemen from countries with lots of oil), but also white supremacists and other disgruntled Americans with a penchant for shooting up their neighbours, schoolmates and shopping malls, jealous boyfriends on prozac, tree hugging neurotic Westerners with a taste for tribal clothes, shopping and eco-fundamentalism and little boys with ambitions to be the next Einsteins, and why, the list of risks is endless!
In order to get to the reactor, there will either have to be no-one around to notice a group digging a hundred feet under ground and cutting through a few inches of steel, or, the group in question will have enough firepower to blow up an entire neighborhood, and in that case, why bother targeting a nuclear reactor when they could take out a mega-mall or similar?
Wikipedia wrote:
The technical specifications of the 4S reactor are unique in the nuclear industry. The actual reactor would be located in sealed, cylindrical vault 30 m (98 ft) underground
That being said, if the locals don't notice someone tunneling down towards their reactor, well then, they deserve what they get. _________________
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1935 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
yesplease wrote:
americandream wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Neat! A terrorist could just put a little explosive near it and ka-blammo!
Or does 24/7 high-quality security come with each unit?
Not just "terrorists" (and by that term, I presume you mean brown skinned gentlemen from countries with lots of oil), but also white supremacists and other disgruntled Americans with a penchant for shooting up their neighbours, schoolmates and shopping malls, jealous boyfriends on prozac, tree hugging neurotic Westerners with a taste for tribal clothes, shopping and eco-fundamentalism and little boys with ambitions to be the next Einsteins, and why, the list of risks is endless!
In order to get to the reactor, there will either have to be no-one around to notice a group digging a hundred feet under ground and cutting through a few inches of steel, or, the group in question will have enough firepower to blow up an entire neighborhood, and in that case, why bother targeting a nuclear reactor when they could take out a mega-mall or similar?
Wikipedia wrote:
The technical specifications of the 4S reactor are unique in the nuclear industry. The actual reactor would be located in sealed, cylindrical vault 30 m (98 ft) underground
That being said, if the locals don't notice someone tunneling down towards their reactor, well then, they deserve what they get.
Lol...there's one sucker born every minute.
Do you reckon that security standards for a reactor on every block are going to be this rigorous or are capable of being this rigorous. For fcuk sake man, we can't even protect our planet!
Going by our performance history to date, I reckon humanity should steer well clear of this crap. We're not up to it pal. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2196 Location: Arkansas
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
I'm not worried about these things blowing up anymore than any other nuclear facility blowing up, any refinery blowing up for all sorts of normal reasons, ammunitions plants blowing up. There are so many terrorist targets, but, like I said, terrorism, disasters etc can be planned for, lack of energy can't. I see these things being used for all the reasons mentioned earlier.
Our grid is out of date and reliant on deplinishing fossil fuels which pollute the environment. So, this solves to problems, localizes energy production and is clean. Even Hubbert believed that nuclear would be the answer. He was probably right.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Toshiba apartment building scale reactor - way cool
americandream wrote:
Lol...there's one sucker born every minute.
Do you reckon that security standards for a reactor on every block are going to be this rigorous or are capable of being this rigorous.
First off, it's a steel box, probably built like a safe, a hundred feet underground. As security standards go, that ain't too bad. Anyone who has the ability to blow up 100ft of dirt below them can do a lot more than target a reactor that'll ultimately leave a bit of nuclear material under 100ft of dirt. The blast up top would probably kill more than breaching the reactor would.
americandream wrote:
For fcuk sake man, we can't even protect our planet!
Can't. We ain't even trying! In fact, given our behavior, we're trying to destroy ourselves, and other species, pretty quickly! We don't give two shits about saving anything.
americandream wrote:
Going by our performance history to date, I reckon humanity should steer well clear of this crap. We're not up to it pal.
Performance history? Nuclear power has been one of the safest and least polluting so far. This is even safer, since it removes the human element, can automatically shut-down if there's a problem, and sits under a hundred feet of dirt in a steel case. The only thing our performance history has shown is that we have no aversion to demonstrably dangerous ways of doing things, and are dumb enough to believe it when people tell us that demonstrably safer alternatives are actually more dangerous. _________________
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. This doesn't make his prediction any more real, but it is an interesting development.
