Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
SPG, I need to find the form, but there is a way to do it which basically states that the employee is responsible for all applicable tax withholding - in short none if you have no SSN but lets employer off the hook. Once again no SSN, no way for them to do it....
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm wrote:
SPG, I need to find the form, but there is a way to do it which basically states that the employee is responsible for all applicable tax withholding - in short none if you have no SSN but lets employer off the hook. Once again no SSN, no way for them to do it....
-G
Form W-4, BTW.
I will be interested in the form you come up with to support your argument.
And what is the purpose of what you are talking about? Does it affect how much you owe in taxes or your obligation to file a tax return? _________________
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
Essentially what I am proposing (at least my take on things after a couple years studying it) is that the SSN is the key in that it represents the contract which makes you liable for withholding and filing, and relinquishes your constitutional rights to due process etc in regards to the contract (taxes).
I know someone who files said form to an employer - I will try to get details but it will take a day or two.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm wrote:
So if you are a natural born US citizen who has CHOSEN not to get a SSN they have no way of withholding and no way for you to file a return other than to tell you "get an SSN" - which is not mandatory.
Yep. That sounds right. You don't have to get an SSN, but you can't file taxes without it, and you can't forgo taxes without going to jail. In essence, if you want to work in the US, you have to get numbered. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Yep. That sounds right. You don't have to get an SSN, but you can't file taxes without it, and you can't forgo taxes without going to jail. In
essence, if you want to work in the US, you have to get numbered.
Actually, if you are not numbered you are not liable for the income tax. But you are liable for sales, property, etc...
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm wrote:
Essentially what I am proposing (at least my take on things after a couple years studying it) is that the SSN is the key in that it represents the contract which makes you liable for withholding and filing, and relinquishes your constitutional rights to due process etc in regards to the contract (taxes).
I know someone who files said form to an employer - I will try to get details but it will take a day or two.
-G
Okay, but the SSN is not mentioned anywhere in the IRC when it talks about who must pay taxes.
And remember, withholding is not YOUR obligation, it is the employer's. Filing a return is your obligation.
Income taxes are not a contractual matter. Most legal obligations imposed by the government are not contractual. You can no more "opt out" of income tax liabilities than you can opt out of speed limits, red lights or other laws. Also, due process rights under the Constitution are not a matter of applying for a SSN.
But I will let you make your argument and comment on it then. _________________
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
BigTex wrote:
Income taxes are not a contractual matter. Most legal obligations imposed by the government are not contractual. You can no more "opt out" of income tax liabilities than you can opt out of speed limits, red lights or other laws. Also, due process rights under the Constitution are not a matter of applying for a SSN.
But I will let you make your argument and comment on it then.
Well I agree that most laws are not "opt out" but please explain then why tax court doesn't need to follow due process before seizure etc. You are guilty until proven innocent in tax court. In filing an income tax form you are REQUIRED to sign the form which can and will be used against you. In essence you cannot retain your rights against self incrimination - you are required to provide the very evidence which will be used against you.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
Quote:
SPG, I need to find the form, but there is a way to do it which basically states that the employee is responsible for all applicable tax withholding - in short none if you have no SSN but lets employer off the hook.
I would be very interested to see that. Publication 15 says that I as an employer am responsible for collecting SSN's and assuring they are accurate before I issue w-2's.
gnm wrote:
relinquishes your constitutional rights to due process etc in regards to the contract (taxes).
It's not a contract. It's a governmental mandate. The government maintains the ability to tell you what to do:
1. Don't comit murder
2. Don't stockpile chemical weapons
3. Do pay income taxes
The statute is quite clear that it applies to the income of all individuals. Nowhere in the statute does it say "This tax applies to individuals with SSNs" or "this tax applies to individuals who file a form" or any of that. It says this tax applies to all types of income from all individuals.
Quote:
Form W-4, BTW.
Erm...yeah. w-4.
Which is here: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4.pdf _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12472 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm, if you are a freelancer or independent contractor, withholding is not taken from your pay, but you are still required to pay income tax. Many people starting out as freelancers believe they are not required to pay income tax because their "employer" does not withhold. Eventually they find out they're wrong, plus fines and interest. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm wrote:
Well I agree that most laws are not "opt out" but please explain then why tax court doesn't need to follow due process before seizure etc.
All forfeiture law is shady. It's based on very old admiralty law, which IMHO is grossly misapplied to the current day. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
gnm wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Income taxes are not a contractual matter. Most legal obligations imposed by the government are not contractual. You can no more "opt out" of income tax liabilities than you can opt out of speed limits, red lights or other laws. Also, due process rights under the Constitution are not a matter of applying for a SSN.
But I will let you make your argument and comment on it then.
Well I agree that most laws are not "opt out" but please explain then why tax court doesn't need to follow due process before seizure etc. You are guilty until proven innocent in tax court. In filing an income tax form you are REQUIRED to sign the form which can and will be used against you. In essence you cannot retain your rights against self incrimination - you are required to provide the very evidence which will be used against you.
-G
As a taxpayer you are free to litigate your claims in federal court, as opposed to tax court.
As for self-incrimination, you are reading the right too broadly. That's just not how it works. The purpose of signing a return is for you to certify that it is correct. If it is not correct, don't sign it. _________________
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
Ludi wrote:
gnm, if you are a freelancer or independent contractor, withholding is not taken from your pay, but you are still required to pay income tax
Not just that, but you're generally required to file quarterly estimated tax payments.
If you think that's bad, wait till you hire an employee. At this point, between myself and two part time employees I'm required to make 28 separate income tax payments each year and file 22 separate returns. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1911 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
As a tax lawyer, I have to say that Big Tex is correct. The die is cast as far as the nature of your system goes in terms of its constitutionality. Nothing short of systemic upheaval will bring the constitutional issues to the fore and that, my friends, will not be played out in a court room. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
Ludi wrote:
gnm, if you are a freelancer or independent contractor, withholding is not taken from your pay, but you are still required to pay income tax. Many people starting out as freelancers believe they are not required to pay income tax because their "employer" does not withhold. Eventually they find out they're wrong, plus fines and interest.
Same is true of pastors, at least in the free church tradition. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Very Disturbing
smallpoxgirl wrote:
If you think that's bad, wait till you hire an employee. At this point, between myself and two part time employees I'm required to make 28 separate income tax payments each year and file 22 separate returns.
I have used them in the past and for what they charge it's well worth it. I think it's around $10 per form. I thought it was a good deal the last time I did 1099s.
There are other similar services. You might want to check it out. _________________
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