Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
cube wrote:
Quote:
As for railroads it will definitely play a larger role in the future:
I think the coming economical difficulties will do more to take cars off the road and promote public transit then all the campaigning that environmentalists have ever done.
I would not disagree with you, Cube, but I would add that there will be countries that adapt to the new realities and those that do not. Just like rail will be part of the solution to high energy prices in some countries. Others will just not get there due to their own shortsightedness. Relatively speaking winners and losers. Just as it has always been. Early movers and laggards.
The problem with environmentalists is not that they do not have valid points, but they oppose all economic development, which is simply unrealistic. They also are quite often intellectuallly lazy and academically dishonest, which does not help their cause either. The easiest arguments to refute are those based on factual errors.
The environmentalists arrested off the coast of Canada this spring during the harp and hooded seal hunt used photos of hunters clubbing seal pups. Something that has been outlawed since 1987. Old footage because it is more graphic and commands more public sympathy, but nothing to do with reality. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
MrBill wrote:
I am not convinced this is the best solution? It has not worked well in the UK so far. But like many privatizations they are half-hearted affairs, so the commercial logic usually gets buried under political interference. Then when it does not work optimally the privatization process is blamed. Of course, the reason governments privatize in the first place is usually that they do not have the ability to raise taxes to cover the necessary capital spending and upgrades and/or cannot afford to continue to subsidize ongoing operating losses.
The UK rail privitisation has got to be one of the greatest argument for hanging John Majors cabinet for derelection of duty, as Voltair said "Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" (in this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others). Sorry a very very long suffering UK commuter here. It is not that it was privitised, just the utter dogs breakfast of a system they chose. Rail companies not allowed to own the trains (that is the rolling stock leasing companies), another company owns the actual rail tracks (the late and unlamented railtrack) and yet more companies to do the maintanence . Privitisation should have been the rebirth of the UK rail network, not the death of dozens of its passengers.
MrBill wrote:
There is a huge push to get trucks off the road and onto rail. Especially through the Alps. Even passenger cars onto rail for long-distances like between Germany and Spain (1500 kms). DB Autozug That's good the environment now and good post peak oil decline later. There is no doubt that rail is the answer in my opinion. Its just too bad that so much public spending has been wasted on autobahns and hub and spoke airports already. Wasting assets going forward.
£21 million per mile to widen a motorway by one lane. Good lord they could have done so much infrastructure on the Midlands Mianline and other rail routes that run along side that car park.
£3 billion to widen the M6 Hmmm the West Coast mainline is our premier rail route now. A few more billion into and we could actualy look the French in the eyes when talking about rail routes.
third runway for heathrowNot sure how much the governmennt will sink into this. It should all be BAA's costs but that has never stopped Labour from getting out the chequebooks.
Last edited by dorlomin on Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
Nothing discredits the privatization process more than privatization done poorly! I was in London last week. The congestion just keeps getting worse. Terminal 5 is a joke in many ways. Every other BAA employee is telling you where to queue with too few actually helping you check-in and get through security. But nice shopping malls. I know that is why I fly? I feel for you! ; - )) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
MrBill wrote:
(...)
The environmentalists arrested off the coast of Canada this spring during the harp and hooded seal hunt used photos of hunters clubbing seal pups. Something that has been outlawed since 1987. Old footage because it is more graphic and commands more public sympathy, but nothing to do with reality.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
Frustrated by the lack of trains in your area? Just get yourself an old sailboat and slap some wheels on her...
"It was a belligerent April Sabbath above the 47th parallel, and we were braced against the gunwales of the sloop Molly B., scanning the livid western sky, waiting for all hell to break loose. Finally, of course, it did. It always does in this part of the world. When the squall hit us upside the starboard bow the boat heaved, the jib snapped, the mainsail swelled, the mast shuddered, and off we went on the ride of our lives.
By the time I could grab a pair of goggles to keep the rain out of my eyes we were pushing five knots. At ten knots Kitty, my wife, tied herself to a cleat. At 15 knots the jib wrenched from its stay and flapped around like abandoned laundry. At 20 knots the wind suddenly pulsed and the boom lashed about, knocking my prized Tokyo Fighter baseball cap off my head and over the stern. I started to lunge for it, but pulled back. There was a more pressing matter 300 yards aft. Bearing down hard on us, retching diesel smoke like some Third World iron works, loaded to the tippy top with pine chips and logs, was a 15-car freight train.
Bummer.
This is clearly the chief danger of sailing on railroad tracks. And for some veteran rail dogs like my co-captain, an attorney we called Loophole, it was also the chief thrill. I yanked on his slicker for attention and shook my arm at the problem. To my profound alarm, he laughed. “I can beat this sucker!’ he screeched like a park bench lunatic. I wrestled him for the mainsheet, but insanity made him stronger. “Think about it!” he shouted. “In two miles we’ll be at the spur and home free. We stop now, we’re cream cheese.” "
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
zensui wrote:
MrBill wrote:
(...)
The environmentalists arrested off the coast of Canada this spring during the harp and hooded seal hunt used photos of hunters clubbing seal pups. Something that has been outlawed since 1987. Old footage because it is more graphic and commands more public sympathy, but nothing to do with reality.
ah yes, wikipedia, the ultimate mediator of truth on the Internet. no bias on that volunteer site is there?
but I think we are refering to hunting harp and hooded seals versus seal cubs, so this is comparable to laws in Canada against harvesting either immature animals or animals out of season.
Quote:
The ship's GPS navigation unit, now in police hands, will eventually yield the truth. But Mr Watson and his group have already scored their public-relations coup. Videos of the seizure and arrests, interspersed with gory scenes of hunters clubbing seals to death, flooded television newscasts and sprouted on the internet. Many featured close-ups of cuddly, white-coated pups, although their killing has been banned since 1987.
This year's hunt for 275,000 harp seals and 8,200 hooded seals was supposed to be conducted under new, more humane rules aimed at making it more palatable to tender-hearted Europeans. That, however, now seems to be a lost cause; the EU is already considering a ban on all seal products from Canada.
Source: Canada's seal hunt _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
yeahbut wrote:
Frustrated by the lack of trains in your area? Just get yourself an old sailboat and slap some wheels on her...
woah I guess some people live more interesting lives then me.
dorlomin wrote:
third runway for heathrowNot sure how much the governmennt will sink into this. It should all be BAA's costs but that has never stopped Labour from getting out the chequebooks.
I just noticed something. For the past 200 years these were the major transportation advancements:
1) canals - barges originally drawn by mules
2) railroads
3) freeways + cars
4) airplanes
5) space rockets
It seems that the more "technological advanced" a transportation system gets, the greater amount of government "help" is required to make it happen or maybe I'm just trying to hard to see a pattern?
In America the "Heathrow" equivalent would be Atlanta airport. The locals have a saying: "Whether you go to heaven or hell, you must change planes in Atlanta first."
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 359 Location: Holland, United Kingdom (of the seven Netherlands)
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
We still have a good network of canals in place in the Netherlands. Most of the cargo boats use diesel atm though. It would be cheaper than road transport but takes a while longer.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
Canal boats are crazy efficient. I'd think that solar powered canal boats are well within the realm of what's possible. Historically, huge loads were moved on canals with just a horsepower or two. A couple of kilowatts of power is all you'd need really, even if it won't be fast.
As for turboprops and efficient aircraft, I suspect that some significant gains could be made for a slight trade-off in safety. Inflatable escape slides and oxygen masks that drop from the ceilings make us feel safer, but in reality I suspect their usefulness is rather limited - how many lives have those oxygen masks saved in total,in all airplanes, throughout the history of aviation? How much do these systems weigh, and how much extra fuel is burned to carry them around at 850kmh? There are other weight cuts to be made too in heavy multi-redundant systems and so forth. Who knows, people may just be willing to risk a 30% higher lethality rate (still really really safe after all) for a significantly cheaper ticket?
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
I would put my money on railways, ports, canals, riverways and other 19th century means of bulk transport making a significant comeback. We can start by dredging canals and ports plus rebuilding our railbeds. As you say maybe some solar, some back-up coal to liquids, some wind power enhancements may be possible? Perhaps in some limited applications. It is a trade-off in terms of just in time versus bulk hub and spoke transport and distribution, but it is more energy efficient at the expense of larger inventories and more storage. That plus a migration of labor to sources of renewable power where manufacturing can be located versus shipping power to where it is needed and where people live now. That means a lot of stranded infrastructure. Wasting assets. Some winners and a lot of losers.
Physical Reality > Economic Consequences > Social Reaction > Political Response > Feedback Loop > New Reality > Etc. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
nemo wrote:
Inflatable escape slides and oxygen masks that drop from the ceilings make us feel safer, but in reality I suspect their usefulness is rather limited - how many lives have those oxygen masks saved in total,in all airplanes, throughout the history of aviation? How much do these systems weigh, and how much extra fuel is burned to carry them around at 850kmh?
Makes some sense. After all, airlines have now started throwing out the in-flight magazines to save fuel. No more SkyMall for you! _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
If they encouraged passengers to drink heavily BEFORE they get on the plane then they would sleep and they would not have to transport food & beverage onboard either? ; - )) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Report: Fuel makes many planes [economically] obsolete
emersonbiggins wrote:
nemo wrote:
Inflatable escape slides and oxygen masks that drop from the ceilings make us feel safer, but in reality I suspect their usefulness is rather limited - how many lives have those oxygen masks saved in total,in all airplanes, throughout the history of aviation? How much do these systems weigh, and how much extra fuel is burned to carry them around at 850kmh?
Makes some sense. After all, airlines have now started throwing out the in-flight magazines to save fuel. No more SkyMall for you!
How many died on the Jet blue plane that went down over Florida. The cause of the crash was a fire in the nose of the plane. Old, out of service oxygen canisters were being transported aboard the plane and caused the fire due to improper handling and shipping procedures. A whole plane load of people died because of these rules requiring little oxygen bombs on board. _________________ www.ChrisGeigerPhoto.com
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