Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12582 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Oil is down, looks like peak oil is averted. We can all close up our truth windows and go home happy.
Okey dokey.
Oh, well.....it seems the only "truth window" that is closed up is the one which has already decided on the truth. Those who haven't decided on the truth, or feel truth is probably beyond human knowledge, seem like their truth windows might be more open than someone who is utterly convinced he has found the Truth. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1165 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Cultures flourish and fade away. Species go extinct. Civilizations rise shine and end up covered in rain forest trees. Christianity is a thought. One day too it will be like Greek mythology is today. One of a myriad of human cultural expressions. I find God hiding somewhere in the truth of this impermanence. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Oil is down, looks like peak oil is averted. We can all close up our truth windows and go home happy.
Okey dokey.
Oh, well.....it seems the only "truth window" that is closed up is the one which has already decided on the truth. Those who haven't decided on the truth, or feel truth is probably beyond human knowledge, seem like their truth windows might be more open than someone who is utterly convinced he has found the Truth.
Ludi,
As far as I can tell you have not really told us what you believe. If you want to please do. If you do not think that what you believe is true that is a much deeper issue than simply choosing what to believe. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12582 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
As far as I can tell you have not really told us what you believe. If you want to please do. If you do not think that what you believe is true that is a much deeper issue than simply choosing what to believe. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Not sure what that has to do with anything, but thanks. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12582 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf, in your opinion, is it better to have beliefs which are false, or to have no beliefs at all?
If one finds no religious ideas to believe in, in your opinion, should one make an effort to find some religion, even if false?
Re: my beliefs. As I've said earlier in this thread, I don't consider my ideas or preferences to be "beliefs" per se - that is, I have no confidence or proof that they are real or the truth. My ideas, which I sometimes do refer to as "beliefs" or even "my religious beliefs," are very personal and probably wouldn't make sense to another person if I tried to explain them. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Hi Ludi,
Just adding my two cents. I hear this alot but Christianity is not religion but rather a personal relationship with God made possible through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
To be saved, one simply comes before the Lord in humble repentance and trusts in Jesus Christ to save them.
Gandolf, here's my Scripture contribution for the day.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19)
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi,
I'll use the Old Testament illustration of Cain and Abel to explain the difference.
Adam and Eve bore two children. Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell." (Genesis 4:3-5)
Here is where religion started as something very distinct happened. Both brothers brought an offering to God to cover their sins. Cain's offering was rejected because he was trying to cover his sin with the labour of good works. Whereas Abel brought forth a lamb without blemish which he knew had to die in his place. God being holy must judge anything unholy or sinful. The Bible says the penalty for sin is death. That's why there is death in the world because sin was brought in when mankind fell.
The end result, Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.
Here we see the difference between religion (doing good works to cover sins) and obedience to God through a sacrifice dying in our place.
Today we see thousands of religions which are good works based. Some even ignore sin altogether. On the other hand, Christ's sacrifice on the cross was all-sufficient to cover the sins of those who repent and trust in Him.
The story of Cain and Abel was one of many foreshadowings in the Old Testament of the Messiah to come, Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God who died in our place.
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)
The early Jewish Christians had a sect that insisted the law still needed to be kept. But the law of righteousness is fulfilled in every Christian when they are lead of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of this since there is no law against love. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." [Galatians 3:28]
Race, sex, social class, background - it doesn't matter when it comes to the issue of salvation.
Praise God, Jesus is not biased when it comes to saving a soul from their sins.
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." [Galatians 3:28]
Race, sex, social class, background - it doesn't matter when it comes to the issue of salvation.
Praise God, Jesus is not biased when it comes to saving a soul from their sins.
Alex
Amen. When I first looked at him I wondered if it was going to be one of those Jesus + Law things. He even goes so far as to claim the Old Covenant was not done a way with. Jewish false prophets are still false prophets. I'm sorry but the man clearly thinks Christians need to keep the law. Now if he were saying that the visible church is no longer chaste and that Christians rarely see what it means that 'friendship with the world is enmity with God.' I would agree. But Hebrews tells us plainly that Jesus is the mediator of a much better Covenant.
Deckard is part of a group that calls themselves The Prophecy Club. Its Benny Hinn in an Ephraimites robe as far as I am concerned. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 114 Location: New of Zealand
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
If we are going to quote the bible can I join in?
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB
"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
With all due respect, this is not what I would like to get into in time of hardship after PO. Though I expect this is not how most Christians view their religion. Its all "modernized" and "friendly" now?
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
s0cks wrote:
If we are going to quote the bible can I join in?
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB
"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
With all due respect, this is not what I would like to get into in time of hardship after PO. Though I expect this is not how most Christians view their religion. Its all "modernized" and "friendly" now?
That is not Chistianity. The judgments of the Old Testament are well explained in the New as a time under the Law. The Law is harsh in it's justice most of the time and sometimes allows for the hardness of heart of the Israelites (see Christ's teaching on divorce),
'For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.' John 1:17
I am not an expert on the Jewish law, but I would bet that the spin you are putting on those passages is not correct. It seems like your modus operandi here is the old 'God is evil' thing. God is God. But He is also good. And in fact Paul says this,
'But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying, or the matters about which they make confident assertions.' 1 Timothy 1:5-7
I really doubt that you would find a Jewish Rabbi who feels the verses you mentioned condone rape, or killing of children, or the abuse of slaves.
The 'God is a bogeyman theory' was something tried by the man in the parable of the talents, who hid what his master had given him in the ground and then returned it to him with a curt rebuke saying 'I knew you were a harsh man so I feared to invest what you gave me so as to do good with it.' [paraphrase]
A more subtle approach might be to say you could offer us a better deal, a nicer heaven, 100's of virgins or something. The direct or implied insult against God's character does not phase someone who has the Holy Spirit and a bit of experience in the Christian life. Nice try though.
May the Lord bless you with true knowledge of Himself. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
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