How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Here we see the difference between religion (doing good works to cover sins)
That is a very narrow and not very often used definition of the word "religion"
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
It's fine to make up your own personal definitions of words, but don't expect to be able to communicate with other people when you use words in your own personal way, and not as other people use them.
Just FYI. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1126 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
POAlex wrote:
Here we see the difference between religion (doing good works to cover sins)
That is a very narrow and not very often used definition of the word "religion"
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
It's fine to make up your own personal definitions of words, but don't expect to be able to communicate with other people when you use words in your own personal way, and not as other people use them.
Just FYI.
Ludi, congratulations for your civil way of telling these people that their arrogance in assumption that sin forms the basis of religion and that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there. What hubris! You have more patience than I do Ludi to even entertain their hubris which is inevitably what every conversation with christians comes down to. They cannot practice their religion in peace within their own community without this hubris. This is a distinguishing characteristic of Christianity that only reinforces what I wrote a few post back that they are spiritual predators. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
POAlex wrote:
Here we see the difference between religion (doing good works to cover sins)
That is a very narrow and not very often used definition of the word "religion"
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
It's fine to make up your own personal definitions of words, but don't expect to be able to communicate with other people when you use words in your own personal way, and not as other people use them.
Just FYI.
Ludi,
Any denomination that I am aware of that believes one must be born again, which would be probably 150 million evangelicals or so, uses the term religion in the way Alex did. Trying to insult someone for not using your definitions is equally vain. The point Alex made is one of important doctrine for a large number of people, doing good works cannot make us pleasing to God in and of themselves. It is Christ's work on the cross alone that forgives sin. Yes, this is not the 'belief' of everyone, but when most Christians preach this they are not doing so to condemn but rather to share their faith. It is common in many churches to refer to religion in this stricter sense as an attempt to be pleasing to God through one's own efforts and the distinction arises directly out of the Bible, James says 'Faith without works is dead' while Paul says 'By grace are you saved through faith, not by works so that no man can boast.'
Ibon,
No one in this thread has shown hubris in sharing the gospel. It is what we believe and we share it with good will and hope because it represents the foundation of an experience with God and of eternal life, as we also believe. To ask a real Christian not to hope that you would taste and see that the Lord is good is like asking sunlight and rain not to encourage a plant to grow. God's goodness toward us through faith in Jesus is a profound evidence of His love and our willingness to share it is evidence of our humility, since we had to divest ourselves of the pride of life just to accept the call to repentance.
Do all who claim to be Christian have that reality? No. But then all who claim to be human are not humane either. I have seen some zeal demonstrated here but I have not seen spiritual pride in any of my brothers and sisters who have posted here. I have seen nothing in them that would disqualify them as witnesses of God's grace.
The writer to the Hebrews says this about some of God's witnesses.
'God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in his Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;'
Hebrews 1:1-4
If that is true then knowing Jesus in a personal way is more important than life itself. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 5:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Not my definition - the dictionary's.
I can find no citation referring to that particular meaning of the word "religion" POAlex gives. If you could post one, that would be helpful, such as from an evangelical dictionary.
No insult intended. Please do not attempt to read insult into everything I post, because it is not intended.
Thanks. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
s0cks wrote:
I'm just quoting. It is up to the individual to interpret.
I take it you also believe the Bible doesn't contradict itself then? I'd also like to ask if you believe Darwin?
I'm certain that I can show you an axiomatic approach to the Bible that does not contradict itself. You also have to have an understanding of different literary usages, like the differences between Judas falling head long and his guts bursting out in Acts, and hanging himself in the Gospels. The first is figurative the second literal.
I assume you mean do I believe in evolution? I accept micro-evolution, and in fact I understand from a scientific perspective all of the pieces of the theory, natural selection etc. Being a mathematician I have not seen an irrefutable argument for irreducible complexity but I do see it as one possibility for some situations. Pertaining strictly to religion there is no need for a Christian to know how old the earth is. The gospel message is dependent on a few things,
1) God created man
2) Man fell from grace through sin
3) Jesus was sent to redeem mankind by offering himself as a sacrifice for sin
4) Jesus accomplished his goal and was raised from the dead
5) Salvation is a reality to those who believe in Jesus
Most of the other things that are included in the Nicene Creed and other creeds do not rise to the level of hindering salvation but they are evident on plain reading of the Bible and so they rise to the level of doctrine. Some broader things are not doctrine but dogmatic stances about issues not related to salvation and are really of little importance to the Christian life unless one decides to have it so.
My view is that the evidence I see says the earth is very old. The truth I experience tells me the gospel is true. If I were forced to choose I would choose the love I know. However, God does not force such things upon us. There are questions that are too big for us to answer and knowing the love of God, that He is good, I trust Him. I do not believe that an old earth viewpoint is inconsistent with Christian faith and practice although I do not insist that it is correct. It simply seems more likely based upon our reason and what we know of geology.
I am not certain that Noah's flood was worldwide, in fact I suspect it was not but that the perspective and ancient literary aspects of the story explain more than most fundamentalists accept.
I am not at all afraid of losing my relationship with God over taking some time to seek to understand things like that. But let me be plain here it is the experience that one has of God after repenting of sin and asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior that makes that possible. If I were trying to do this by myself I would fall squarely into one of the religious or dogmatic holes carved out by the minds of men. Only God can lift a soul above it's state so that it percieve something greater. There are counterfeits to be sure but none can seal the deal with the promise of the Holy Spirit save Jesus alone. Jesus fulfills all of this and as I quoted earlier He is the only way.
'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.' Jesus speaking in John 14:6
If you ever test God by the strategy of believing in Jesus, I believe you will find someone on the other end of the line. In that moment you will know how little most of the excuses we use really are in light of God's love. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1126 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Ibon,
No one in this thread has shown hubris in sharing the gospel. It is what we believe and we share it with good will and hope because it represents the foundation of an experience with God and of eternal life, as we also believe. To ask a real Christian not to hope that you would taste and see that the Lord is good is like asking sunlight and rain not to encrouage a plant to grow. God's goodness toward us through faith in Jesus is a profound evidence of His love and our willingness to share it is evidence of our humility, since we had to divest ourselves of the pride of life just to accept the call to repentance. Do all who claim to be Christian have that reality? No. But then all who claim to be human are not humane either. I have seen some zeal demonstrated here but I have not seen spiritual pride in any of my brothers and sisters who have posted here. I have seen nothing in them that would disqualify them as witnesses of God's grace.
The worst hubris is the one unseen. Nobody here doubts that your experience of Christ is as full of love and goodness as you state. Also I have no doubt in your sincere wish to want to share this with others.
But you fail to see that this blissful humbling religious experience can be equally a reality of others who do not necesarrily believe in sin or believe in Jesus Christ as the lords son who died on the cross for our supposed "sins". This is where your unseen hubris expresses itself. Your love in not uncondional. It assumes first that only those that know Christ can know this bliss and it also assumes that those who haven't surrendered to this are sinners or doing good works but not touched by the truth of Jesus etc etc.
Spiritual predators are not evil. They commit evil in full faith and bliss and love of their faith. As long as Christianity has as central tenant the need to convert the non believer and sees them and all men as sinners then your religion remains agressive. Even if your motive is out of the blissfull love in your experience of CHrist.
I met a Buddhist Rinpoche several years ago when I went to Bhutan, a small central Asian buddhist country. We sat together outside this temple and spoke of many topics including christianity, He stated that he respects deeply the compassion and many tenants of christianity but he does not understand this concept of conversion or of how men are viewed as born sinners.
I am not a budhist and I also see many examples of hypocracy in buddhism. But I found a lot of truth in what he said as it mirrors my own views.
Your religion is inherently agressive as history shows. And never doubt that the genocide and atrocities commited by your religion where done with hands on swords who pledged a love of Christ as humbling and devout as your own. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ibon wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Ibon,
No one in this thread has shown hubris in sharing the gospel. It is what we believe and we share it with good will and hope because it represents the foundation of an experience with God and of eternal life, as we also believe. To ask a real Christian not to hope that you would taste and see that the Lord is good is like asking sunlight and rain not to encrouage a plant to grow. God's goodness toward us through faith in Jesus is a profound evidence of His love and our willingness to share it is evidence of our humility, since we had to divest ourselves of the pride of life just to accept the call to repentance. Do all who claim to be Christian have that reality? No. But then all who claim to be human are not humane either. I have seen some zeal demonstrated here but I have not seen spiritual pride in any of my brothers and sisters who have posted here. I have seen nothing in them that would disqualify them as witnesses of God's grace.
The worst hubris is the one unseen. Nobody here doubts that your experience of Christ is as full of love and goodness as you state. Also I have no doubt in your sincere wish to want to share this with others.
But you fail to see that this blissful humbling religious experience can be equally a reality of others who do not necesarrily believe in sin or believe in Jesus Christ as the lords son who died on the cross for our supposed "sins". This is where your unseen hubris expresses itself. Your love in not uncondional. It assumes first that only those that know Christ can know this bliss and it also assumes that those who haven't surrendered to this are sinners or doing good works but not touched by the truth of Jesus etc etc.
Spiritual predators are not evil. They commit evil in full faith and bliss and love of their faith. As long as Christianity has as central tenant the need to convert the non believer and sees them and all men as sinners then your religion remains agressive. Even if your motive is out of the blissfull love in your experience of CHrist.
I met a Buddhist Rinpoche several years ago when I went to Bhutan, a small central Asian buddhist country. We sat together outside this temple and spoke of many topics including christianity, He stated that he respects deeply the compassion and many tenants of christianity but he does not understand this concept of conversion or of how men are viewed as born sinners.
I am not a budhist and I also see many examples of hypocracy in buddhism. But I found a lot of truth in what he said as it mirrors my own views.
Your religion is inherently agressive as history shows. And never doubt that the genocide and atrocities commited by your religion where done with hands on swords who pledged a love of Christ as humbling and devout as your own.
You are generalizing Christians to Christianity and failing to acknowledge that not everyone who claims to be a Christian acts like one. That those who do not exemplify Christ sometimes also preach the Bible correctly does not invalidate the claims of the Scripture. How sinners use any book or ideology to their own ends, whether easily understood or obfuse, is no reflection on God, it is their choice. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Hi Ibon,
You said "that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there."
Here's what Jesus Christ said.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Either salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone or one would have to trust in their own goodness to be right before God. However, the Bible says God is holy so in order to be declared not guilty, come our judgment, we too must be holy.
I know I'm not, in fact I'm a wretch. I'm a liar, a thief, an adulterer at heart, a blasphemer and much worse. I'm filthy. The video in my sig examines the issue of whether any of us are good enough. So without Christ, in God's sight, I'm a very unrighteous man. Come judgment day, my eternal soul would end up in the lake of fire.
That's why God shed His precious blood on the cross for us. He paid the death penalty for our sins, so His atoning blood covers me and I'm declared not guilty by simply humbling myself in repentence and trusting in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. In Christ I am a new born-again creature.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Its a precious and priceless gift.
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"
(Hebrews 2:3)
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
You said "that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there."
I think Ibon is trying to point out that the Christian perspective is not the only valid spiritual/religious perspective in the world, that there are many other religions and spiritualities which, to the people who believe in them, are equally valid. Of course the Christian does not see them as valid, but the Christian should at least acknowledge them as valid to the people who believe in them. This does not mean agreeing with them, or thinking they are right. It simply means acknowledging that they exist and are important to the people who believe in them.
For instance, I don't agree with much of what Christians believe, but I acknowledge that they do actually really believe, that their belief is important to them, and that their experience of their relationship to God is real and important to them.
I hope that is accurate to what Ibon is trying to convey. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
POAlex wrote:
You said "that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there."
I think Ibon is trying to point out that the Christian perspective is not the only valid spiritual/religious perspective in the world, that there are many other religions and spiritualities which, to the people who believe in them, are equally valid. Of course the Christian does not see them as valid, but the Christian should at least acknowledge them as valid to the people who believe in them. This does not mean agreeing with them, or thinking they are right. It simply means acknowledging that they exist and are important to the people who believe in them.
For instance, I don't agree with much of what Christians believe, but I acknowledge that they do actually really believe, that their belief is important to them, and that their experience of their relationship to God is real and important to them.
I hope that is accurate to what Ibon is trying to convey.
I think you said the same thing with a softer tone as Ibon. I would hope that a person does not practice any religion unless they feel it has some value to them, or believe anything that they do not believe. And honestly most religions try to include something about how people can make themselves better, or what the purpose of life is etc.
There are many examples throughout history. Early stoics and even to the time of Seneca were much admired for their basic philosophies which were quite close to the Pauline wisdom in many ways. However, Seneca was the teacher of Nero, who later went crazy and killed Paul. Some attribute Nero's lunacy to the pederastic nature of his early mentorship under Seneca. Still here is a quote from the Stoic, who was known for his dogmatic verse and hyprocritical life.
Seneca From Letter IX
[He quotes Hecato of Rhodes to make his point] 'I shall show you,' said Hecato, 'a love philtre compounded without drug or herb or witch's spell. It is this: if you wish to be loved, love.'
Though he undoubtedly heard of Christianity, he died a proud Roman, committing suicide at Nero's request. And yet in almost every way this man considered himself full of his philosophy about life, he died with great estates and great fame.
Even the Bible would seem to echo Hecato in this,
'without love I am nothing.' 1 Corinthians 13:3
We have not suggested that people are not content with their beliefs. We have only suggested that the more excellent way goes beyond the discoveries of stoic philosophers but is summed up in this.
'The one who does not love does not know God, for God is Love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.'
1 John 8,9
Hidden hubris? I am thankful to know God. Though Ibon's arguments are subtle they cannot possibly penetrate the armor of God which is given us by the Holy Spirit and is tougher than dragon's scales. Doubt is not a Christian virtue and the lack of it is not necessarily a vice.
All are welcome here, that is the point of a thread like this on a forum like this. But if you find you simply can never appreciate what is being said, why not start your own , 'Christians are full of hidden hubris' thread where you can offer words of encouragement of your own and to those who want to hear?
I am willing to listen and I have read several posts here that I really did not agree with and offered Biblical answers, but why keep coming back to the trough if you prefer wild berries? At some point returning again and again only to question is moot. To claim you are not opposing although not agreeing can last only for a little while. You all have better things to do with your time than trying to convince a bunch of deeply committed Christians that their faith is in vain. It simply won't work.
Before I leave it on that note though let me reiterate that I find many aspects of many of the ancient greek schools not only true but useful. That said I find nothing I need in them that I do not also find in the Bible and I defer all debate to Acts 2:38-40
'And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far of, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"'
Have any of you read 'Phaedrus' by Plato? I love Socrates' description of the soul and the warring passions, very much like teachings in the Bible, but lacking the intimate knowledge of Christ. Paul dealt with these things when he preached at Athens on Mars Hill, you can read the sermon and learn of the result in Acts 17.
I had said I would lay out the doctrine of sin and I will start doing that tomorrow by God's grace. I look forward to comments by any who care to respond.
Yours in Christ,
GTW _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1126 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Hi Ibon,
You said "that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there."
Here's what Jesus Christ said.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Either salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone or one would have to trust in their own goodness to be right before God. However, the Bible says God is holy so in order to be declared not guilty, come our judgment, we too must be holy.
I know I'm not, in fact I'm a wretch. I'm a liar, a thief, an adulterer at heart, a blasphemer and much worse. I'm filthy. The video in my sig examines the issue of whether any of us are good enough. So without Christ, in God's sight, I'm a very unrighteous man. Come judgment day, my eternal soul would end up in the lake of fire.
That's why God shed His precious blood on the cross for us. He paid the death penalty for our sins, so His atoning blood covers me and I'm declared not guilty by simply humbling myself in repentence and trusting in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. In Christ I am a new born-again creature.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Its a precious and priceless gift.
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"
(Hebrews 2:3)
Alex
It must feel very cozy to have this construct to nestle into that takes care of all of life's questions. And such deep faith that it never even enters your mind that this might all be just a construct and nothing more. To actually feel the power and grace of god. That your trust in Jesus is what you consider your most precious gift. A road map.
Never a thought that arises that you can toss this road map aside?
But of course. You mentioned it yourself. Your a wretch and a sinner. Which of course is what you are when you doubt your faith or feel a moment of curiousity to look beyond the road map. It is only the devil. Your faith being tested.
Your christian faith provides an architecture to remain hermetically sealed within its circular logic.
You are such a good christian soldier. God is proud of you POlex. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Joined: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 114 Location: New of Zealand
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Have any of you seen the Derren Brown episode when he goes to America? He basically sets up a meeting at a church where anyone can attend and promises an instant conversion. Obviously the people attending are not religious (but perhaps they are curious).
Basically using tricks of the mind and hypnosis he manages to almost instantly convert a number of individuals who truely believed they had been touched by God. At the end he obviously had to confess what he had done.
This does go to show that it is not hard to induce chemical reactions and feelings in the brain that are interpreted as a mystical presence. In modern society a good excuse for this is God or some form of higher-being.
In response to your response regarding contradiction I mean basic examples.
God is all powerful. - Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful. - Judg 1:19
The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob - Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli - Luke 3:23
The father of Salah was Arphaxad - Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan - Luke 3:35,36
There are hundreds of examples.
In regards to evolution vs. creationism you gave me a pretty typical response. It seems the more science explains what really happened, the more the bible becomes metaphorical rather than literal.
Anyway, perhaps we should end this conversation. Neither of us is going to convert and I don't want to get too emotionally caught up in this thread. I find it hard to understand how intelligent, rational people can believe in something so absurd and irrational. Don't take this as a direct insult, its just how I feel. But thank you for your responses. It still made interesting reading.
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