Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
s0cks wrote:
Have any of you seen the Derren Brown episode when he goes to America? He basically sets up a meeting at a church where anyone can attend and promises an instant conversion. Obviously the people attending are not religious (but perhaps they are curious).
Basically using tricks of the mind and hypnosis he manages to almost instantly convert a number of individuals who truely believed they had been touched by God. At the end he obviously had to confess what he had done.
This does go to show that it is not hard to induce chemical reactions and feelings in the brain that are interpreted as a mystical presence. In modern society a good excuse for this is God or some form of higher-being.
In response to your response regarding contradiction I mean basic examples.
God is all powerful. - Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful. - Judg 1:19
The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob - Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli - Luke 3:23
The father of Salah was Arphaxad - Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan - Luke 3:35,36
There are hundreds of examples.
In regards to evolution vs. creationism you gave me a pretty typical response. It seems the more science explains what really happened, the more the bible becomes metaphorical rather than literal.
Anyway, perhaps we should end this conversation. Neither of us is going to convert and I don't want to get too emotionally caught up in this thread. I find it hard to understand how intelligent, rational people can believe in something so absurd and irrational. Don't take this as a direct insult, its just how I feel. But thank you for your responses. It still made interesting reading.
I will look at this Derren Brown. Maybe I will take him up on his challenge. It sounds interesting, someone who claims to have the power to deprogram me of all the myths I believe.
I'll see you around s0cks. Take care. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Hi Ibon,
You said "that accepting that Christ died on the cross for us being born sinners is the only valid religious perspective out there."
Here's what Jesus Christ said.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Either salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone or one would have to trust in their own goodness to be right before God. However, the Bible says God is holy so in order to be declared not guilty, come our judgment, we too must be holy.
I know I'm not, in fact I'm a wretch. I'm a liar, a thief, an adulterer at heart, a blasphemer and much worse. I'm filthy. The video in my sig examines the issue of whether any of us are good enough. So without Christ, in God's sight, I'm a very unrighteous man. Come judgment day, my eternal soul would end up in the lake of fire.
That's why God shed His precious blood on the cross for us. He paid the death penalty for our sins, so His atoning blood covers me and I'm declared not guilty by simply humbling myself in repentence and trusting in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. In Christ I am a new born-again creature.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Its a precious and priceless gift.
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"
(Hebrews 2:3)
Alex
so easy, to "clean sins" with belief in dogma. This is not a gift, this is a curse, to not be responsible for our own actions and perpetuate suffering of everyone. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ibon wrote:
You mentioned it yourself. Your a wretch and a sinner.
Yes and I'm just being honest.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
so easy, to "clean sins" with belief in dogma. This is not a gift, this is a curse, to not be responsible for our own actions and perpetuate suffering of everyone.
'And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.'
1 Peter 1:17-19
I'm guessing that passage did not go over any better then than it does today, when Peter tells people their heritage is useless to save them. Nevertheless, to Christians, it is not so easy to cleanse sins, it required the blood of Christ. And for that salvation Christians are expected to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. The cost is high all around, but the return on investment is out of this world. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4070 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Ibon wrote:
You mentioned it yourself. Your a wretch and a sinner.
Yes and I'm just being honest.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
Alex
But wait a second, wasn't Isaiah writing from the perspective of a Jew under the old covenant?
When he said "we", who was he talking about?
It seems to me that if you really want to be a good Christian, you ought to throw out most of the old testament. That's old covenant stuff that only applies to the Jews, right?
I thought Christ came to fulfill the old testament prophecy AND represented a new covenant, which replaced adherence to the Jewish law with the more fluid notion of grace.
It seems to me that a Christian who tried to follow both the new testament and the old testament would be sacrificing his family pets, performing home circumcisions, and living to be 800 years old.
When you see a pile of filthy rags, do you ever have the urge to dive in and just wallow in the filth? You seem to really like the "filthy rag" image. _________________
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
zensui wrote:
so easy, to "clean sins" with belief in dogma. This is not a gift, this is a curse, to not be responsible for our own actions and perpetuate suffering of everyone.
'And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.'
1 Peter 1:17-19
I'm guessing that passage did not go over any better then than it does today, when Peter tells people their heritage is useless to save them. Nevertheless, to Christians, it is not so easy to cleanse sins, it required the blood of Christ. And for that salvation Christians are expected to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. The cost is high all around, but the return on investment is out of this world.
It's too easy, like cornucopian's dreams of limitless energy, and you're betting all your afterlife to a dream of limitless happyness for a price of limitless servitude. God as described by Christianity is not worthy of that servitude. How you're fine with an eternity in hell or heaven for just believing in 1 statement is crazy. How do christians remain sane? And why they don't care for those that are destined to be on hell for chosing the "wrong side" of a bet that exists only because of God's will? God, as described by Christianity, is a worthless egocentric megalomaniac sadomasochistic ignorant child of samsara. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
zensui wrote:
so easy, to "clean sins" with belief in dogma. This is not a gift, this is a curse, to not be responsible for our own actions and perpetuate suffering of everyone.
'And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.'
1 Peter 1:17-19
I'm guessing that passage did not go over any better then than it does today, when Peter tells people their heritage is useless to save them. Nevertheless, to Christians, it is not so easy to cleanse sins, it required the blood of Christ. And for that salvation Christians are expected to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. The cost is high all around, but the return on investment is out of this world.
It's too easy, like cornucopian's dreams of limitless energy, and you're betting all your afterlife to a dream of limitless happyness for a price of limitless servitude. God as described by Christianity is not worthy of that servitude. How you're fine with an eternity in hell or heaven for just believing in 1 statement is crazy. How do christians remain sane? And why they don't care for those that are destined to be on hell for chosing the "wrong side" of a bet that exists only because of God's will? God, as described by Christianity, is a worthless egocentric megalomaniac sadomasochistic ignorant child of samsara.
You did not say a single true thing about Christianity or God in that tyrade zensui. If you would like me to I can split that nut apart and give you an answer for each accusation you have made from the Bible. Would you take the time to read if it I did? _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
POAlex wrote:
Ibon wrote:
You mentioned it yourself. Your a wretch and a sinner.
Yes and I'm just being honest.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
Alex
But wait a second, wasn't Isaiah writing from the perspective of a Jew under the old covenant?
When he said "we", who was he talking about?
It seems to me that if you really want to be a good Christian, you ought to throw out most of the old testament. That's old covenant stuff that only applies to the Jews, right?
I thought Christ came to fulfill the old testament prophecy AND represented a new covenant, which replaced adherence to the Jewish law with the more fluid notion of grace.
It seems to me that a Christian who tried to follow both the new testament and the old testament would be sacrificing his family pets, performing home circumcisions, and living to be 800 years old.
When you see a pile of filthy rags, do you ever have the urge to dive in and just wallow in the filth? You seem to really like the "filthy rag" image.
There are some nuances to the issue but in a nutsehll this verse sums up the essentials of how Christians should see the Law and the OT.
'For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.' Romans 8:3,4
There is much more about all that in Romans chapters five through eight. Essentially odebience to the law of love in Christ fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law, therefore there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).
As for the proper balance of OT passages. Many of them do speak of truths that apply in the NT, Alex's verse is one. However, lifting passages out of the OT that are clearly written as promises to the Israelites may or may not be appropriate depending on how one tries to apply them. The ceremonial law is done away with in Christ. The law of love which those who have the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) exemplify never falls under the curse of the Law, there simply is no law against it. Many of the prophecies of the OT speak of the church, Christ and the church age, and remain unfulfilled. Many of the prophecies are viewed as having been fulfilled in the last century, including the return of Israel as a nation.
I personally believe that 9/11 was the opening of the first seal of Revelation, which clearly qualifies me as a whacko. But wait I think the invasion of Iraq represents the opening of the second seal, and that what we see emerging right now is the opening of the third seal of the Book of Revelation.
Sadly, some would condemn even mentioning that as if it would be my fault if unstable folks did crazy things because of it. I intend only to speak the words God gives me and to proclaim the good news about faith in Jesus. However it is OT prophecy like
Isaiah 24 which leads me to believe that God will judge the entire world and all nations upon it at some point. And yes the term 'world' can be figurative of the known world, but there is more to it than that.
Here is a taste of some of the finest of OT apocalytic which parallels Christ's speech in Matthew 24 and the Book of Revelation in many ways.
'The earth is broken asunder,
the earth is split through
the earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard,
and totters like a shack,
For its trangression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.'
Isaiah 24:19,20
'So it will happen in that day,
That the Lord will punish the host of
heaven, on high,
and the kings of the earth, on earth.
And they will be gathered together like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
And His glory will be before His elders.'
Isaiah 24:21-23 _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
But wait a second, wasn't Isaiah writing from the perspective of a Jew under the old covenant?
When he said "we", who was he talking about?
It seems to me that if you really want to be a good Christian, you ought to throw out most of the old testament. That's old covenant stuff that only applies to the Jews, right?
Hi BigTex,
The law has not been abolished, rather fulfilled in Christ.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)
It still stands but it serves the purpose of a schoolmaster to show us that we need a Saviour. To whom we come to and are then under grace when we are born again by the Holy Spirit.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4)
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Jesus wept. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Anyone who has read the Bible and believes every word will agree that worrying about our environment and trying to conserve energy (among other things) is an act of defiance against the Living God. Friends, the Lord will take care of everything. God made the Earth and the Heavens and if He wants to destroy it all, He will! In fact, one of the things that makes folks True Christians™ in the first place is that we are PRAYING for the destruction of this planet. You see, God actually wants us to use up all the resources, because when everything is gone, it will signal the return of sweet Jesus to come kill all the Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Hindus and Tree-Hugger-know-it-alls.
Quote:
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? - Matthew 6:25
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Oh yeah...
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Timothy 2:11-14).
_________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
Quote:
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? - Matthew 6:25
If people had been living like this, there wouldn't have been mass industrialism and consumerism, hence no PO or CC. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Fredrik wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Quote:
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? - Matthew 6:25
If people had been living like this, there wouldn't have been mass industrialism and consumerism, hence no PO or CC.
sweet _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
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