Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Oh Aaron, don't link to a joke site to make a point about real Christians!
The quotes are accurate _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1132 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
Alex
As will your religion one day as the worms will feed on the proverbs that will return to dust. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
What this is turning into (turned into) is Gandalf and POAlex asking others to adopt their view of the truth.
Their view of the truth is what they received from reading the Bible, talking to like-minded people and entering a meditative state called prayer in which they tapped into higher levels of consciousness (maybe) and discovered insights not obvious from the surface.
Armed with this understanding and insight, they are now attempting to obtain wider agreement regarding the understanding of truth that they have arrived at.
The fact that their understanding of truth is by definition absolute is problematic. It's problematic because their perception and understanding of truth has no superiority over my own. That is why it has been necessary to enforce church dogma over time through coercion.
Fundamentally, the problem as I see it is this: Christianity at its best is about the individual seeking understanding honestly and reading the words of Jesus as recorded and deciding whether that code of conduct and morality makes sense to him or her. If it appeals to the person reading it, then that person does well to follow it to their heart's content.
When, however, a person does not come to Jesus and his teachings as a function of an honest desire to understand spiritual matters more deeply, the whole thing becomes perverted. It quickly deteriorates into the following bad things:
1. imposition of views on the weak-minded
2. the use by TPTB of the faith as a tool of thought and action control
3. the use by TPTB of the faith as a way to legitimize their use of power over others
4. grasping by the fearful for a system of beliefs with the best promise of an after-life.
These are the things that trouble me about proselytizing in a dogmatic manner. I don't think that Christianity needs that. I think it stands up well to any other code that someone might offer. I much prefer to discuss it as a model for living whose truth is based upon its effect in operation, as opposed to truth based simply upon the declaration of one of its adherents.
Does this mean picking and choosing which rules to follow and which to ignore? YES! It must, or else we are not exercising the judgment that whoever created us endowed us with. Because Jesus threw furniture in the church when he saw people doing business in the church, does that mean that any time I see people doing business in my church that I too should start throwing furniture?
Because Jesus walked on water, does that mean I should attempt to walk on water and when I can't count myself a failure? Of course not.
My advice to anyone who is interested is this: perfect your own faith and understanding of things. This should take you a while. Once you have completed this task, talk to people about faith and spirituality when they indicate that they are ready. When you talk to them about their faith and spirituality, give equal time to their views and share your views in a respectful manner. After all, if it is you who have truth on your side, what will be the harm in respecting views that are false? Won't they fall away when confronted with the truth?
On the other hand, if you win someone over to your views through force of personality, fear and by dismissing their current beliefs, even if they are "converted" today, how durable will that faith be? I suspect not very durable at all. How much comfort will it give them when it REALLY matters? If they were led to it through the devices I mention above, I suspect it will leave them just as suddenly as it found them.
These observations have been my actual experience based upon living the life of a believer, non-believer, and various points in between. The conclusion I have come to is that there is no hope for sharing any belief in a meaningful way without first respecting beliefs that are contrary to your own. What moral authority can you ever have to impose your beliefs upon someone through proselytizing if you are not also willing to listen to their views with an open mind? After all, as I said above, if you are the one with truth on your side, shouldn't you welcome the opportunity to put your faith side by side with any other system in order to demonstrate the truth of your beliefs?
It's always interesting to me to see how interested people are in talking about what they believe with the expectation that I will listen, but they are often much less eager to listen when it is my turn to speak (unless, of course, I am agreeing with them).
I just think it's critical for people to understand that the choices they make in life are THEIR CHOICES. They have to live with them, not me. If I decide for them, then they are cheating themselves. As much as people might want someone else to decide for them, that's just not realistic. Decisions made in that manner only lead to confusion, because when the person is asked to make a sacrifice as a result of the decision they experience it as a great insult, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
The marketplace of ideas either works or it doesn't. If it works, then great, let's talk it all out with faith that the truth will emerge. If it doesn't work, then why bother wasting all of these keystrokes trying to coerce someone to your view of truth. Why not just get a gun and tell people what they are going to believe? That strikes me as a much more efficient method of coercion. _________________
Last edited by BigTex on Fri May 02, 2008 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
Anyone who has read the Bible and believes every word will agree that worrying about our environment and trying to conserve energy (among other things) is an act of defiance against the Living God. Friends, the Lord will take care of everything. God made the Earth and the Heavens and if He wants to destroy it all, He will! In fact, one of the things that makes folks True Christians™ in the first place is that we are PRAYING for the destruction of this planet. You see, God actually wants us to use up all the resources, because when everything is gone, it will signal the return of sweet Jesus to come kill all the Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Hindus and Tree-Hugger-know-it-alls.
Quote:
Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? - Matthew 6:25
Jesus understood alot of things, well being God and all. He did not mean that passage to say ' carelessly destroy the earth.' and ironically few Christians would interpret it that way. It is about priorities and trusting in God, if anything it is about finding the knowledge of God and the message of the gospel to be more important than earthly concerns about prestige, and material things.
I am in an odd place with all that, see I have a graduate degree in environmental science so I understand the legitimate concerns. I do also agree that most Christians I know in America view consumerism and upper middle class suburbia as a sign of God's blessing for the nation (they love their quality of life and consider it non-negotiable, which contradicts the Bible regarding physical comforts.) People I know who understand the Bible do not wish for the death of anyone. Nor do we long for the wrath of God, but I admit that like many POers, since we know it is coming it might be better just to get it over with.
Some people cannot handle the idea even of a sovereign God. They think that God would be violating their rights if He judged sin or interefered with their lives in any way. Of course if God is God then that is absurd. The zeitgiest of this day is not only a right wing dictatorial spirit, but it has a twin left wing totalitarian spirit. As the one ghoul is creating prisons of money and power for the elite, the other is creating prisons of thought for the poor. It is a perfect pyramid of dark power in which only a small number of participants actually knows who or what is controlling them.
Christians cannot be generalized or stereotyped too strongly, and neither can any other 'group.'
Have you read that book by Tammy Bruce, 'The New Thought Police' that talks about how the Left is trying to suppress freedom of thought in the name of civil liberties? Then on the Right and in many churches is an elitism that would make any egotist proud. Both extremes are far away from the message of Christ, which in most social contexts is extremely moderate, but radical and revolutionary in that it recognizes God as the ultimate authority and does not hold God accountable for the ways in which humans use the concept of God for their own ends.
There are agents of thought control everywhere in our society, and then there are preachers of liberty and of choice. Biased as they are, if they deliver their message with respect for others, then belief remains a choice. And if the message of some is accompanied by the irrefutable testimony of God Himself this does not make them or Him biggots.
I can't know for sure how long it will take the various contingents of thought control to complain about this thread, but I would not be surprised to hear complaints both from the far left and the far right, and from just about anyone who disagrees.
My defense of the thread is this. Peak oil is affecting people's lives, the purpose of the psychology forum is supposed to be offering help. Some are going to find comfort in the Bible, that does not mean that they are going to use it as a way to ignore responsiblity. Such generalizations are not appropriate in any context and almost never arise from considered arguments.
I have a friend that I shared about the environment with and this person (a Christian) was excited at first but the last time I talked to them the enthusiasm was gone. I don't know but I do suspect that this person ran into the subculture that thinks environmental concerns are the moral equivalent of apostasy and because the person is embedded in a Christian culture is not able at this time to risk being ostracized for things like that.
If you think about helping people understand issues, it is deeper than just giving them information. For every ascent of the mind that is more than a passing fancy there is a cost benefit analysis that has to be done. Standing up for what is right because it is right is a choice that has consequences and people who are aware of them consider their actions carefully.
I would not be a Christian if I had not counted the cost of saying that
a) there is benefit in this life of embracing Jesus as Lord and Savior
b) the benefits go beyond this life as well.
Although (a) would have been enough for me. All of that being said there is a tremendous amount of groupthink pressure that exists in many churches of all denominations. Groupthink is a human failing that can happen anywhere and those who fall under its spell are easy prey to those who would control them.
Don't believe in Jesus because the Bible seems by some interpretations to threaten God's wrath, but if that is what motivates consideration of the Bible don't reject it. Don't believe in Jesus because some find in the Bible an excuse for not doing what seems right, but if in Christ you see the chance to tell those who abuse you that you will be their victim no more, then call out to Him.
I know whom I serve and He is good, wise, and able to save. That He is sovereign may not be evident to all currently, and it may seem an injustice at times, but if it is a fact then where else does one turn? And yet even Christ did not resort to this in a huff, but expected God's character to be the reason for His justification in judgment. Anyone willing to read the Bible without an agenda will agree that the Bible concludes with hope and not with terror.
I try to answer every unsolicited attack and every legitimate concern for many reasons. I do not claim to represent all Christians, though many would agree with what I teach. I am a solitary preacher offering a real hope which I can help anyone who believes the Bible to find and maintain. Not because of my education by the hands of men, but because of God's grace to me over many years.
If I see any of you in a post peak world I would hope it would be not in the wilds fending off marauding bandits, but in the middle of a moderate loving community helping each other get through the biggest crisis humanity will yet face. And I suspect that I will see all of you at some time, and many of you in the happy state I would prefer.
Regards _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
He did not mean that passage to say ' carelessly destroy the earth.' and ironically few Christians would interpret it that way. It is about priorities and trusting in God, if anything it is about finding the knowledge of God and the message of the gospel to be more important than earthly concerns about prestige, and material things.
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Well?
If "Take no thought for your life" means it's all God's will then what difference does it make what we do for or against the environment?
No matter what we do God is going to french-fry the entire world eventually right?
Just sayin' _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
Quote:
He did not mean that passage to say ' carelessly destroy the earth.' and ironically few Christians would interpret it that way. It is about priorities and trusting in God, if anything it is about finding the knowledge of God and the message of the gospel to be more important than earthly concerns about prestige, and material things.
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Well?
If "Take no thought for your life" means it's all God's will then what difference does it make what we do for or against the environment?
No matter what we do God is going to french-fry the entire world eventually right?
Just sayin'
The 'no matter what we do part' is different than the Biblical doctrine. Prophecy is given to show what will happen, or what might happen if things don't change. The Book of Revelation is a prophecy more like one of those 'man ultimately fails the test requiring God's intervention in ways He would rather not have had to' sort of thing. That is the most prominent view of Revelation I here among Christians. And look in an odd way it is very much like many of us believe about PO. We think that no matter the efforts made humanity will not adequately deal with the challenge of peak oil leading to an apocalypse of sorts. That the outcome is fixed bacause of human shortcomings.
The Book of Revelation says God's judgment is inevitable because of humanity's rebellion against God out of which all the other evils sprout like grass in the springtime. In that sense is it not slightly hopeful to think that a good God and a righteous King would come in and pull out the weeds and then set up His Kingdom on earth to be characterized by righteousness and wisdom and love. If it is a fairytale it is largely the same one (with a few concepts substituted) that everyone who hopes for a better future embraces. There are many non-biblical versions of this: Fluffy soft powerdown, the enlightened remnant who rebuild a green world after PO, and many others. Consider this verse though about God's wrath,
'The Lord is known by the judgment He executes; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.' Psalm 9:16
Faith or not, clearly it is a premise. And yes I concede it follows from the notion that God is just and God is Creator and owner therefore He has the right to do such things, so it brings us back to that question of God's nature and character as being at least tacit assumptions necessary for one to consider the claims of the Bible.
Oh,...yeah. Talking about this reminded of an article in the Economist recently (which by quoting I'm sure I will get some feedback.) I take that back it was Scientific American
"Several psychological studies appear to support [17th-century Dutch philosopher Benedict] Spinoza’s conjecture that the mere comprehension of a statement entails the tacit acceptance of its being true."
I found that interesting because it relates to axiomatic approaches to knowledge in this way. Being inherently a rational approach: the axiomatic method tries to distill a small number of things that must be taken as true by assumption and a set of rules for argument from those assumptions into a broader system of truth. I have never seen a person converted to faith in Jesus who refused to entertain the notion that God exists or that God is good, that there is some reward for seeking Him. And amazingly the Bible asserts these very things when the writer to the Hebrews says,
'And without faith [Gk pistis - trusting in the faithfulness of God] it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.' Hebrews 11:6
This verse all by itself defines aspects of Biblical faith when one understands the greek term pistis. From that perspective it is almost like saying, how can you trust in God if there is no God, and why would He reward you for that trust if He is not good?
It's is a much more rational argument than one would believe from the way some Christians interpret that and previous verses, and the way they speak about faith as some kind of ethereal substance or something. Faith is very concrete. Upon such a concrete trust in a real person all sorts of things are possible.
I'm smiling now as I write this because I can see logically how it is completely intrinsic. Those who do not think God is good will not seek Him, and if any who claim Him do not do what is right they are not exemplifying Him as He is. What a beautiful gem for someone well trained in logic to find. A God who cannot be proved or disproved, known or unkown unless He first allows it. Whoa!
As I have said before my testimony and of those who have put the Biblical God to the challenge of living up to His word have found Him faithful and the Bible consistent when we start from the nature and character of God as defined by the New Testament, and through that lens all of Scripture as well.
Thanks for posting Aaron. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf,
Amen to God's faithfulness.
"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations." (Deuteronomy 7:9)
I just have an honest question for those of you following this thread.
Is there anyone who can say with sincerity that they are without sin? In other words, you have not transgressed the Law of Moses, the Ten Commandments?
Alex
Last edited by POAlex on Fri May 02, 2008 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
clueless wrote:
Quote:
Well not for you as you have already taken the "mark of the beast." Oh yes, yes you have. After all, what is the one single thing that no man can buy or trade without using these days? It's petroleum or petro-dollars.
Petroleum also fits the description of "that which was, but no longer is, but still is" which is how the Bible describes the "beast." In this case, petroleum was once organic living matter, but no longer is alive, but still lives on as fossil fuels.
So have fun in hell my friend!
Oh and by the way - Matt is our resident Bible Critic ! Sorry Matt, the petrodollar may be a component of the "Mark of the Beast", but cannot be the final implementation of it, there are still too many rougue currencies out there. But look out for the IMF, they have been pushing some intersting agendas these days.
I actually wrote Savinar into a short story about Peak Oil. I would be willing to share it with you all, but warn you it was written during a time when I was not purposefully serving the Lord, though still hoping to do something good. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
I just have an honest question for this thread. Is there anyone here who can say they are without sin? Has anyone not transgressed the Law of Moses, the Ten Commandments?
Alex
Alex, this is a silly question. The Bible defines sin basically as man acting on his innate animal instinct, and that we all have sinned and will continue to sin, because we still have a lot of animal instinct leftover within each of us.
Thus, according to this conception of sin, if you are a human, you are by definition sinful.
So what you are really saying is whether there is anyone who doesn't want to acknowledge that they are sinners. If anyone said they were not, you could tell them how deluded they are in believing such a thing.
For those who concede they are sinners, then it obviously raises the question regarding what may need to be done about that obvious defect in our constitution.
But either way, the question is designed so that people will need to turn to YOU for the answer. Thus, YOU become the dispenser of truth.
What a slick power grab.
If I say I have my own truth, you may say it is not real truth because it does not come from a book and does not have buildings with its name on it or centuries of history, but that's not really relevant, is it?
What's relevant is whether truth as I understand it is true to me.
Just like what's relevant is whether truth as you understand it is true for you.
But wait, wait, you may say, I have the REAL truth, you will declare.
But you know what, my truth is REAL as well. In fact, if necessary, my truth can even be REAL.
Soon we are at an impasse. Now it is a battle of wills. With God on your side, you will confidently assault my beliefs, and I may return the favor, but now we are arguing, and it's no longer a search for truth, but more like two males just being competitive.
I appreciate the filthy rags routine and your sincere profession, but as long as the only absolutes are based upon your understanding of the world, and your understanding of the world precludes even the validity of any contrary views, talking with you will remain sort of like clapping with one hand.
I readily acknowledge, however, that the blunt instrument approach is quite useful against weak minds and I wish you the best of luck in bending them to your dogma.
What's a little sad for me is that there is another approach to spreading the word you are attempting to spread, and it involves appealing to a person's intellect and reason, as opposed to their fears and insecurities. If, however, you want to appeal to the intellect, you have to understand people much better than if you just want to scare them. The approach I am suggesting is what I would call an EFFECTIVE witness. You don't treat people like filthy rags, you don't treat them like YOU have the truth market cornered, and you don't play silly semantic games trying to trick them into believing that only you have the answers to their problems.
And how about STARTING with some of Jesus's teachings about kindness and humility, rather than all the filthy rags, fire and brimstone stuff? _________________
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Alex, this is a silly question. The Bible defines sin basically as man acting on his innate animal instinct, and that we all have sinned and will continue to sin, because we still have a lot of animal instinct leftover within each of us.
Hi BigTex,
The issue of truth does not lie with what I've said but with what God has said. If it was simply what I said, then I would agree with you, brush it aside.
However, what I'm sharing with you comes from the Bible. Here's what is said about sin.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
We sin when we break God's moral law, the Ten Commandments.
Who can say we haven't lied? Haven't stolen something? Haven't coveted?
God did not create man as sinners, but eternal. Only after Adam and Eve broke the one simple command God gave them, was death and sin brought into the world. Along with it came a cursed, fallen world which was seperated from God.
As you said, now each of us are born with a sinful nature.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:13)
So that begs the question. If we're all sinners, then where does that leave us in our standing with God?
Is God not holy and perfect?
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." (Psalm 145:17)
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
The Book of Revelation says God's judgment is inevitable because of humanities rebellion against God out of which all the other evils sprout like grass in the springtime.
"You talk prettier than a five dollar whore."
Blazing Saddles
Exactly what I said in my own course way.
God's gonna kick ass & take names eventually.
Then 1,000 years of partying etc...
So conserve or don't. Trash the environment all you like... won't matter after G-dog comes to town.
Take no thought for your life... he's got your back.
No amount of... "Well... he didn't mean it like that", is likely to be convincing. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
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