Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
zensui wrote:
I think the key point is lust (craving sex, being a slave to sexual and sensual pleasure) more than adultery. I do not care a bit if I enjoying seeing girls bodies, I don't care if they have boyfriends or husbands... of course, I let this enjoyment go the moment it ends. IMO, it's a healthy balance.
Well I'm calling it a night but in light of our discussion about sin, I'll leave you with these four verses to consider.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"
(1 Corinthians 6:9a)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)
Have a good night.
Alex
no thanks. I prefer not to repress sexual instincts neither to be slaves to them. Meditation helps to acchieve this. Your words are not comforting, the form and content of them are unwise. _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4073 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Wow!
Nice work. You sound like my mother. I view YOUR argument to be
a) not the same as Aaron's [who is btw a full grown man who has been around a little bit. I'm sure he has done his share of debating and thereby learned to have a thick skin.]
and
b) to be rather 'enmeshed' if you understand the term.
I don't know any other word to finish my response with based on what you have said earlier than, 'Wow!' Truth is not negotiable, but to suddenly go Dr. Jekyll here and start suggesting that I am somehow being selfish by preaching the Bible, that to mention God's word is an act of pure self interest is really off in left field. What ever medication you are taking it needs to be adjusted because that was not a cogent turn to take.
I'm taking time to answer because of the sickly mushy tone in your post, I simply had to say something about it. I can only hope that you find the courage to break free from any need to be validated by others. I'm having flashbacks of every dysfunctional 40 something mom I have ever known, who sincerely thinks the next relationship is the right one, but they always end the same way.
The world has nothing that can satisfy you or save you. May the Lord see and help you understand that. Investments made in sin are really never paid back, it is a well with no bottom that never gives water.
Gandalf, the problem is that faith and spirituality is not a one size fits all matter. That's my point.
It troubles me a lot to see matters of faith presented as matters of fact, because they are not matters of fact. If they were, it would not be a faith.
I am simply making the arguments that I think need to be made to flesh out this discussion. If you are going to make the case for Christianity, you must be able to address those arguments.
Human reason will show up to the party soon enough. Why not try to get these matters addressed up front? _________________
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1162 Location: Central NC
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
zensui wrote:
I think the key point is lust (craving sex, being a slave to sexual and sensual pleasure) more than adultery. I do not care a bit if I enjoying seeing girls bodies, I don't care if they have boyfriends or husbands... of course, I let this enjoyment go the moment it ends. IMO, it's a healthy balance.
Well I'm calling it a night but in light of our discussion about sin, I'll leave you with these four verses to consider.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"
(1 Corinthians 6:9a)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)
Have a good night.
Alex
Consider that if folks don't put much faith in the bible or christianity that the verses won't mean squat.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Gandalf, the problem is that faith and spirituality is not a one size fits all matter. That's my point.
It troubles me a lot to see matters of faith presented as matters of fact, because they are not matters of fact. If they were, it would not be a faith.
I am simply making the arguments that I think need to be made to flesh out this discussion. If you are going to make the case for Christianity, you must be able to address those arguments.
Human reason will show up to the party soon enough. Why not try to get these matters addressed up front?
When you know someone personally is that a matter of fact or of faith? Your definition of faith is not Biblical, so why try to analyze the Bible in light of it?
You are and will remain forever free to 'believe' what you like. Where you get the idea that I have to validate people's beliefs by being oh so accepting and cordial I can't imagine.
It just blows my mind. Its as if you expect people to apologize for their beliefs, if they hold them strongly enough to advocate for them, but here you are doing the same for your own.
Your definition of faith as something somehow mysterious is not Biblical, the term translated 'faith' in the New Testament is over 98% of the time the greek word pistis which means to trust in the faithfulness of God. There is no mystery there.
When you then consider the verse Hebrews 11:1
'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convinction of things not seen.'
If you know the greek word it reads
'Now trust in the faithfulness of God is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.'
Why does that make concrete sense? Because if you know that God exists and God is good, and you take Him at His word then the Spirit of God leads your life. You hope for things that are godly and in His will, you believe when He promises you things.
I fully understand that that is not as clear to others as it is to myself and alot of the people I know. There is little I can do about that except live, pray, and share. Beyond that my hands are tied.
But if you are asking me to apologize for preaching the gospel as though it is true,... What planet are you living on? It has no bearing on the 'facts' at all.
Faith is not a mystery, an ethereal goo, or any other such thing. Faith in Christ is trust placed firmly in a person you know which comes about by accepting the existence and good character of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and therefore by extension the teachings of the Bible. The message of the gospel is accompanied by the literal presence of the Third Person of the Trinity in the hearts of those who are saved. My 'faith' is that this person who never contradicts the scriptures in anything that He tells me or the other Christians I know will never leave me or forsake me. He will fulfill His promise to those who trust in Him. That is about as concrete as it gets and that is Christian faith. please don't tell me you think the early Christian suffered martyrdom over a good feeling that came from 'believing' there was a God out there somewhere? And please do not tell me you think that 'should' be enough. There is so much more than that. I make arguments to reason and to emotion because people are rational beings and emotional beings and God cares about all of those aspects, but knowing God is not something that a mature Christian is in anyway foggy about. Doubt and double-mindedness are for the babes and the immature. As is being tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
There is a passage where the Apostle Paul speaks to the Corinthians about his trials and he says this,
2 Corinthians 1:8 'For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life.'
When a man of Paul's experience is under pressure to the point that he and his followers were thinking their lives were about to end, burdened excessively, I always wondered why did he not question his faith. He goes on to say,
1:9,10 'indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliever us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us'
Does that sound like a man for whom knowing God was a mystical vaguery? Did he take a few moments when he realized he might die to ponder the mysterious nature of faith? Or did he reach out in prayer with every fiber of his being to the One he knew personally ever since the Damascus Road? Paul was not afraid to die for Christ and he faced that possibility as if God were waiting right there on the other side for him with open arms. Do you really think that is possible with a faith that is indescript?
I am compelling you to consider the reality that God actually exists, is personally knowable and that the message of Christ is the truth. Believe in Jesus. That is biblical faith, the only faith that can save.
Faith as some kind of unexplored option in the human soul couldn't save an electric chipmunk.
If you believe the Bible there is no debate about this. It is as plain as the words on the page.
Other religion's claim faith in their gods and they are welcome to that version if they must insist. That is not the faith whereby Christians are saved and I will preach it the louder the more you try to dissuade me.
I would suggest to you to toss your mamby pamby view of faith out the window and start knowing God concretely by unequivocally believing what the Bible says about God and viewing that Book as a roadmap for a successul Christian life.
Then you are cooking with gas! _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
I wonder how many of the Christians here can estimate how many people in their church or Christian circle of friends would even sit down to listen to something like that? But I take it very seriously. It is not some far off conspiracy theory, it is a fact that the moneys of the world are controlled by a small group of men playing spin the pentagram in some European Penthouse.
Where do we go brothers and sisters? What is the timeline? What is next? Is it time for secret handshakes and underground church meetings or do we have time yet to counter the goals of Sauron. Many days since I first found this site in 2005 and first learned of the issue did I feel that lidless eye wreathed in flame staring at me.
When I say I take this seriously I do mean it, I do not feel like I live in a democracy any longer. Everyone and everything is owned, there is no true freedom left. Stand up against anything in this juggernaut of wickedness at will cast you out. We are fortunate that it is not to the point where those who oppose are being executed, but those who question are being lied to, and those who continue to question are being surveilenced and silenced in subtle and not so subtle ways.
Where is the God of Elijah! _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Can we get honest and say that the Bible nowhere supports that argument, that it is ok to sin because well it all gets burnt down anyways?
Sure we can.
But, as you already may be aware, that's not the argument I posited.
Why bother with environmental conservation, alternative energy tech research etc... if it's all predetermined anyway?
The Rapture & Armageddon are inevitable according to you, because some folks won't get on board with your god's ideas right?
And yes... I'm a thick-skinned old heathen.
PAX friend... I'm just making observations here... not proclaiming ultimate truth. (As BT pointed out you were doing a few times)
Cue the "God is mysterious" argument. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4073 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Were you self-righteous before you became a Christian and you learned humility as a Christian?
Any way you arrived at humility I would count as gain. All paths to understanding seem to pass through humility.
Okay so here's the question.
If one realizes they are unrighteous before our holy God, then what can be done to wash away that unrighteousness?
Alex
Alex, I will discuss this with you, but there are a few items in your question that need to be clarified:
1. Who are you referring to when you say "our"? ("our holy God)
2. On what basis are you concluding that washing away unrighteousness is something that needs to occur? On what basis does this need arise? Who decided that? Did they decide it for everyone? How did they get the authority to do that? If you are positing something that is innate in everyone, then why doesn't everyone agree that it is innate? _________________
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1136 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
BigTex wrote:
Were you self-righteous before you became a Christian and you learned humility as a Christian?
Any way you arrived at humility I would count as gain. All paths to understanding seem to pass through humility.
Okay so here's the question.
If one realizes they are unrighteous before our holy God, then what can be done to wash away that unrighteousness?
Alex
POAlex,
you have found what works for you. That's cool dude. Is it though dependent on being ultimately the only way? In fact, when your faith and belief in Jesus and God is hinged on this needing to be THE TRUTH and THE ONLY TRUTH than is this not agressive against other peoples "faiths" and "spirituality" but also ultimately demonstrating a weakness of your faith?
If christianity became a philosophy of life that contains accepting Jesus as your saviour etc., something that BigTex seems to embody (please correct me if I am wrong) than why can't this simply be enough?
Why can't christians stand side by side with other faiths and belief systems as equal brethren?
As long as christianity stands on the foundation of it being the only true way to God through Jesus than you can't have your cake and eat it too. You will never truely reach brotherhood with your fellow man, you will only be able to move in the polarity of holding up the shield of rightousness against all those that don't believe and argue against you and limit your brotherhood to others who share your beliefs as you are doing here with Gandalf the White.
This is a sad testimony of a weak faith.
Can you put the bible down a moment and ponder this without coming back with some regurgitated proverb? _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4073 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
When you know someone personally is that a matter of fact or of faith? Your definition of faith is not Biblical, so why try to analyze the Bible in light of it?
I have not defined faith except to describe what it is NOT. Anything you are claiming to be a fact is by definition not a matter of faith. An item cannot be both factual and a matter of faith. Faith is what allows you to believe in something that cannot be verified factually.
Quote:
You are and will remain forever free to 'believe' what you like. Where you get the idea that I have to validate people's beliefs by being oh so accepting and cordial I can't imagine.
I am free just as you are to make decisions about my own life and spirituality. You do not need to validate anyone else's beliefs, nor do you need to be cordial and accepting. However, the Golden Rule suggests that if you would want someone to be respectful and tolerant of your views, you should be willing to do the same for them.
Quote:
It just blows my mind. Its as if you expect people to apologize for their beliefs, if they hold them strongly enough to advocate for them, but here you are doing the same for your own.
I do not expect people to apologize for their beliefs. I enjoy listening to people who feel strongly about their beliefs.
Similarly, advocacy is okay, so long as there are ground rules that everyone agrees to. But advocacy presupposes that there is more than one possible answer and that we are trying to determine which approach is correct. As I said before, you are assuming the thing you are trying to prove, and you are not advocating for a position, so much as pronouncing its truth without first making the case for its truth.
Quote:
Your definition of faith as something somehow mysterious is not Biblical, the term translated 'faith' in the New Testament is over 98% of the time the greek word pistis which means to trust in the faithfulness of God. There is no mystery there.
It is not mysterious to break matters into those of fact and those of faith. That's a pretty common sense grouping to me.
There is nothing wrong with faith, but it is not fact. Knowing what can be proven and what must be accepted without proof is important in understanding your own beliefs.
Quote:
When you then consider the verse Hebrews 11:1
'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convinction of things not seen.'
If you know the greek word it reads
'Now trust in the faithfulness of God is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.'
Why does that make concrete sense? Because if you know that God exists and God is good, and you take Him at His word then the Spirit of God leads your life. You hope for things that are godly and in His will, you believe when He promises you things.
But you don't KNOW that God exists, you BELIEVE that God exists. That's where faith comes in.
Again, you are using the Bible as an infallible source of wisdom and spiritual knowledge, but you have not shown on what basis the Bible is infallible, other than your FAITH that it is infallible.
Ultimately, all you are talking about are matters of faith. All of it. Nothing wrong with that, but you should just state that up front.
Quote:
I fully understand that that is not as clear to others as it is to myself and alot of the people I know. There is little I can do about that except live, pray, and share. Beyond that my hands are tied.
Why would it surprise you that others don't share your view of the truth? You don't share other peoples' view of the truth, right? Do you think that surprises them? You may not share my view of the truth, and that is my expectation. It doesn't surprise or disappoint me that you see things differently. I appreciate where you are coming from and I don't feel the need to change you. If you decide you would like to know more about what I believe I will tell you.
Quote:
But if you are asking me to apologize for preaching the gospel as though it is true,... What planet are you living on? It has no bearing on the 'facts' at all.
No, I am not asking you to apologize for preaching the gospel as though it is true. However, if you are going to approach it in that manner, it would be naive of you not to expect someone to say "on what basis did you determine that it was true?" You have to be able to answer this question.
Quote:
I make arguments to reason and to emotion because people are rational beings and emotional beings and God cares about all of those aspects, but knowing God is not something that a mature Christian is in anyway foggy about. Doubt and double-mindedness are for the babes and the immature. As is being tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
No, you are wrong on this point. Christians at all stages in their journey have doubt, confusion and periods during which they feel utterly separated from God.
Mother Teresa wrote that she felt absolutely no presence of God for something like the last 40 years of her life. Nothing.
Quote:
I am compelling you to consider the reality that God actually exists, is personally knowable and that the message of Christ is the truth. Believe in Jesus. That is biblical faith, the only faith that can save.
Of course, I consider that reality. And my beliefs are based upon my faith. I do not have any factual basis for determining that God or Jesus do or do not exist. If I did, it would not be a religion, it would be a science.
Quote:
Faith as some kind of unexplored option in the human soul couldn't save an electric chipmunk.
That is simply another way of saying you are right and others are wrong, but it is an unsupported assertion.
Quote:
If you believe the Bible there is no debate about this. It is as plain as the words on the page.
Right. But on what basis should I or anyone else believe the Bible? How did it come to be the rulebook for absolute truth? Who decided? When did they decide? Could they have been wrong? How do we know?
Faith.
Quote:
Other religion's claim faith in their gods and they are welcome to that version if they must insist. That is not the faith whereby Christians are saved and I will preach it the louder the more you try to dissuade me.
I'm not trying to dissuade you. Preach it from the rooftops. But if you encounter resistance, I'm trying to offer you some thoughts on where the resistance comes from.
Quote:
I would suggest to you to toss your mamby pamby view of faith out the window and start knowing God concretely by unequivocally believing what the Bible says about God and viewing that Book as a roadmap for a successul Christian life.
Why is my view of faith "mamby pamby"?
Why is asking for the basis of a source of authority problematic?
To me, the only way for a source of authority to be legitimate is for its adherents to be able to explain on what basis the authority was established.
When I challenge authority and get brushed off, I can only assume the authority is not legitimate. You need to be able to explain the source of authority for the Bible's inerrancy. Or at least discuss it.
And you need to be able to do it without assuming the thing you are trying to prove.
I can argue the other side of every point I am making, and that's what you must be able to do if you are going to be an advocate for something as important as the truth regarding a person's eternal fate.
To me, though, it starts with saying "here are the facts, and here are the things I am going to ask you to believe as matters of faith." _________________
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Olaf wrote:
Wow, 19 and so omnipotent...
Ok, I'll try very hard to hold back on the sarcasm, but I'm going to wager you haven't seen nearly enough of the world, or experienced nearly enough to be certain of jack diddly doo.
For my part, I like this world, just not the society we've built upon it; and when my time to leave it comes, I hope I die well.
Olaf
P.S. Holy crap I had to delete about 10 things I wrote in this post before I submitted it. I hope that christian faith thing works out for you.
Edit: After reading your edited initial post, it occurs to me that you aren't necessarily saying you are 19 years old...but I'll leave the comment just the same.
No, I first commited myself to Christ at the age of 19. I have had about 20 years of living since then give or take a small amount. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ibon wrote:
POAlex,
you have found what works for you. That's cool dude. Is it though dependent on being ultimately the only way? In fact, when your faith and belief in Jesus and God is hinged on this needing to be THE TRUTH and THE ONLY TRUTH than is this not agressive against other peoples "faiths" and "spirituality" but also ultimately demonstrating a weakness of your faith?
If christianity became a philosophy of life that contains accepting Jesus as your saviour etc., something that BigTex seems to embody (please correct me if I am wrong) than why can't this simply be enough?
Why can't christians stand side by side with other faiths and belief systems as equal brethren?
As long as christianity stands on the foundation of it being the only true way to God through Jesus than you can't have your cake and eat it too. You will never truely reach brotherhood with your fellow man, you will only be able to move in the polarity of holding up the shield of rightousness against all those that don't believe and argue against you and limit your brotherhood to others who share your beliefs as you are doing here with Gandalf the White.
This is a sad testimony of a weak faith.
Can you put the bible down a moment and ponder this without coming back with some regurgitated proverb?
Do you know why Jesus said this?
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
lper100km wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
The hope of heaven in the gospel, all by itself, is not anymore motivated by misplaced trust and hucksterism than laissez fair economics. That men have been able to use it for sorded gain is an indictment of both them and the ones who were so easily led astray.
I see that heaven has been downgraded from a certainty to a hope in a few posts. Well, that’s some quick progress.
So, promoting the hope of heaven is OK because …?
It’s not OK to promote the hope of earthly future benefits because it’s sordid and an indictment of those who promote it and those who are lead astray.
Really. What in fact is the difference?
Christian hucksterism promising both earthly and heavenly rewards, is rife on TV, the mega churches, in the ‘activist’ churches and for all I know every church across the USA on every Sunday. Because it’s ‘Christian’, does this set it apart and make it OK?
The outcomes of peak oil will be determined by economics, by national interest and should owe little or nothing to religion of any kind. The one overriding danger at a national level is that someone or group with sufficient political power is motivated by some extreme religious belief that leads to irrational and devastating consequences. That is something of which we all should be afraid. I see no reason why a Christian would make any better informed decisions on any significant topic than any reasonable non religious person. In fact, I would prefer that such decisions be made rationally and without the encumbrance of a pre-conditioned mindset.
I had to come back to this one because I need to make sure I clarify what hope is according to the Bible.
If you look at the greek word translated hope in the New Testament is overwhelmingly the word elpis this means n expectation or a confidence.
In common English usage 'hope' is usually found in places like this.
"Are you going to get that money from your Dad this week?"
"I sure hope I do, I am broke."
Where the meaning is I am uncertain as to whether I will or won't get the money. That definition for hope does not fit the meaning of the Greek word that was translated as hope.
So I wanted to come back and reiterate that to those who are in Christ eternal life is not downgraded by the use of hope. The issue does raise some important questions about how faithful the English language versions are to the best meaning in the Greek. And even whether modern english as it evolves in places where it is spoken by not slowly make certain translations harder to understand for some.
A better (more faithful to the meaning) translation of the passage
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is accoding to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago' Titus 1:1,2
Might be this
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the expectation ( or confidence) of eternal lifem which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago'
There is not doubt either in God's promise or in His ability to deliver implied by the word elpis. Therefore a person trusting in the faithfulness of God (pistis) should have no doubt about eternal life.
What I intended to convey was that it is possible for those who believe to fall away and not return (Hebrews 6:4-8.) and therefore eternal life is not a foregone conclusion for everyone who claims to be Christian at the moment you meet them. That however is something that is between that person and God, ultimately. I do not believe that God easily gives up on those who are His, in fact only the son of perdition was lost, and for those who know about the debates over predestination and freewill this raises many important questions and interesting thoughts.
So, the way I spoke about that verse at first was wrong. The premise was right and there are other passages that support that, but the context was wrong. I stand corrected. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
That one too. It changes your perspective to realize it was JFK who issued these and it was more than 45 years ago. America took a distinctly different turn in the 20th century than it appears was intended by the Founding Fathers. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
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