Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1136 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Ibon wrote:
POAlex,
you have found what works for you. That's cool dude. Is it though dependent on being ultimately the only way? In fact, when your faith and belief in Jesus and God is hinged on this needing to be THE TRUTH and THE ONLY TRUTH than is this not agressive against other peoples "faiths" and "spirituality" but also ultimately demonstrating a weakness of your faith?
If christianity became a philosophy of life that contains accepting Jesus as your saviour etc., something that BigTex seems to embody (please correct me if I am wrong) than why can't this simply be enough?
Why can't christians stand side by side with other faiths and belief systems as equal brethren?
As long as christianity stands on the foundation of it being the only true way to God through Jesus than you can't have your cake and eat it too. You will never truely reach brotherhood with your fellow man, you will only be able to move in the polarity of holding up the shield of rightousness against all those that don't believe and argue against you and limit your brotherhood to others who share your beliefs as you are doing here with Gandalf the White.
This is a sad testimony of a weak faith.
Can you put the bible down a moment and ponder this without coming back with some regurgitated proverb?
Do you know why Jesus said this?
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Alex
True to form Alex. Your shield is standing mighty. What else should of I expected? I already stated that you are a good christian soldier. As to having a mind of your own? _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4074 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
A better (more faithful to the meaning) translation of the passage
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is accoding to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago' Titus 1:1,2
Might be this
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the expectation ( or confidence) of eternal lifem which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago'
There is not doubt either in God's promise or in His ability to deliver implied by the word elpis. Therefore a person trusting in the faithfulness of God (pistis) should have no doubt about eternal life.
Gandalf, I want you to revisit the thought process that led you to do what you did above.
You re-wrote a bit of scripture to more closely match your understanding of it.
I am certain that early scribes did the same thing with the very best of intentions.
They no doubt truly believed they were clarifying or expanding upon important ideas and concepts.
If re-phrasing or clarifying certain passages of scripture helps deepen your understanding of it, that's great. However, be honest with yourself about whether you are the first person to do this, and to what extent the Bible we have today is likely the product of this same process occurring with many scribes, editors and translators over the centuries.
The Bible is a good book, it's THE good book, but it has been touched by too many human hands over time to take the language that was handed down to us literally.
The good news, however, is that the overall concepts that come through are almost certainly original, and I think there is much to be learned from them. _________________
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
(...)Because if you know that God exists and God is good, and you take Him at His word then the Spirit of God leads your life. You hope for things that are godly and in His will, you believe when He promises you things.
(...)
So God is male and therefore human-like (or humans are god-like, for my point it's the same). Aren't God's slaves/believers just projecting their own (human) self in something imaginary and adoring (a projection of) themselves out of fear of death?
And the same unaswered question: why does pain and suffering exist? Why God created (the possibility of) Hell? And if some soul perceive God as more evil than good, isn't the absense of God (Hell) preferable to eternal slavery to Him (Heaven)? _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12069 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
And if some soul perceive God as more evil than good, isn't the absense of God (Hell) preferable to eternal slavery to Him (Heaven)?
By God, do you mean YHWH/Elohim? Or just "a god" in general?
If God is Love, then no one would want to be without Him. Every human wants to be loved. It is difficult for me to see the God of the Bible (YHWH/Elohim) as that loving being. Certainly the Old Testament God is depicted more as a vengeful judge than a loving merciful father. God is not really much of a character in the New Testament, he only shows up once or twice, as I recall. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
(...)
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Alex
So Jesus is:
1) the way (towards the father)
2) the truth (debatable)
3) the only way towards the father
And why do you think I'm interested in such egocentric deity? Again, Abraham's God is an ignorant child of suffering (samsara) that wants more slaves. There are wiser humans (buddhas) than this self-centered, egoist and arrogant deity. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
(about hope in God)
Fair enough. I suggest you use determination instead of hope as a better translation. But determination on an unwise statement may still lead to suffering, your dogma makes it more difficult to just love all other humans. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
zensui wrote:
And if some soul perceive God as more evil than good, isn't the absense of God (Hell) preferable to eternal slavery to Him (Heaven)?
By God, do you mean YHWH/Elohim? Or just "a god" in general?
If God is Love, then no one would want to be without Him. Every human wants to be loved. It is difficult for me to see the God of the Bible (YHWH/Elohim) as that loving being. Certainly the Old Testament God is depicted more as a vengeful judge than a loving merciful father. God is not really much of a character in the New Testament, he only shows up once or twice, as I recall.
Love is Love and God is God.
The act of Loving should be universal and unrestriced on every human towards all other humans.
Love should be practiced and expressed with certainty and without craving of getting something in return.
Love is a verb, God is a noun.
It is not logically honest to say that God is the same as Love.
This is a trap.
God as described in both the old and new testaments is not always, without restriction, a loving being.
God hates those that does not love Him.
Such love is not pure, such deity is not worthy of trust.
We should love each other, without conditions or restrictions, before claiming servitude to such dishonestly "loving" deity. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
So conserve or don't. Trash the environment all you like... won't matter after G-dog comes to town.
Take no thought for your life... he's got your back.
The Bible doesn't say we should take no thought for other people's lives. And promoting climate change certainly affects others negatively. Even if global warming didn't change humanity's eschatological fate, it does cause avoidable suffering in the meantime.
zensui wrote:
God as described in both the old and new testaments is not always, without restriction, a loving being.
God hates those that does not love Him.
Someone said God's love for righteousness is greater than his love for humans. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 193 Location: Over the tracks, left under the overpass, right, third boxcar on the left, ask for Jack
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
lper100km wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
The hope of heaven in the gospel, all by itself, is not anymore motivated by misplaced trust and hucksterism than laissez fair economics. That men have been able to use it for sorded gain is an indictment of both them and the ones who were so easily led astray.
I see that heaven has been downgraded from a certainty to a hope in a few posts. Well, that’s some quick progress.
So, promoting the hope of heaven is OK because …?
It’s not OK to promote the hope of earthly future benefits because it’s sordid and an indictment of those who promote it and those who are lead astray.
Really. What in fact is the difference?
Christian hucksterism promising both earthly and heavenly rewards, is rife on TV, the mega churches, in the ‘activist’ churches and for all I know every church across the USA on every Sunday. Because it’s ‘Christian’, does this set it apart and make it OK?
The outcomes of peak oil will be determined by economics, by national interest and should owe little or nothing to religion of any kind. The one overriding danger at a national level is that someone or group with sufficient political power is motivated by some extreme religious belief that leads to irrational and devastating consequences. That is something of which we all should be afraid. I see no reason why a Christian would make any better informed decisions on any significant topic than any reasonable non religious person. In fact, I would prefer that such decisions be made rationally and without the encumbrance of a pre-conditioned mindset.
I had to come back to this one because I need to make sure I clarify what hope is according to the Bible.
If you look at the greek word translated hope in the New Testament is overwhelmingly the word elpis this means n expectation or a confidence.
In common English usage 'hope' is usually found in places like this.
"Are you going to get that money from your Dad this week?"
"I sure hope I do, I am broke."
Where the meaning is I am uncertain as to whether I will or won't get the money. That definition for hope does not fit the meaning of the Greek word that was translated as hope.
So I wanted to come back and reiterate that to those who are in Christ eternal life is not downgraded by the use of hope. The issue does raise some important questions about how faithful the English language versions are to the best meaning in the Greek. And even whether modern english as it evolves in places where it is spoken by not slowly make certain translations harder to understand for some.
A better (more faithful to the meaning) translation of the passage
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is accoding to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago' Titus 1:1,2
Might be this
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the expectation ( or confidence) of eternal lifem which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago'
There is not doubt either in God's promise or in His ability to deliver implied by the word elpis. Therefore a person trusting in the faithfulness of God (pistis) should have no doubt about eternal life.
What I intended to convey was that it is possible for those who believe to fall away and not return (Hebrews 6:4-8.) and therefore eternal life is not a foregone conclusion for everyone who claims to be Christian at the moment you meet them. That however is something that is between that person and God, ultimately. I do not believe that God easily gives up on those who are His, in fact only the son of perdition was lost, and for those who know about the debates over predestination and freewill this raises many important questions and interesting thoughts.
So, the way I spoke about that verse at first was wrong. The premise was right and there are other passages that support that, but the context was wrong. I stand corrected.
Expect, anticipate, wish, trust, have faith in, desire, aspire, plan, chance (of), likelihood (of), possibility (of) are grammatical synonyms of hope. All mean essentially the same thing ie that the event posited is less than certain of being fulfilled and furthermore, that the person ‘hoping’ is well aware that the outcome may not be favourable.
The Christian view has subtly attempted to spin a few of these into meaning a 100% positive outcome, when applied in context to the concept of being saved and being transported to an eternal life. You are simply reiterating this idea. Thus the hope or expectation of eternal life really means a certainty of eternal life to the Christian, providing the person is saved.
Why a faith concept should be predicated on mind numbing grammatical and etymological interpretations and the hair splittings of words that have very robust meanings in everyday use is grasping at straws. To try to suggest that these words have evolved different meanings is an ingenious diversion, but totally without justification. What has really happened is that the Christian community, or those here at any rate, have appropriated these words and applied a particular contextual meaning. Doesn’t make it so.
Since you referred to my post again, I note that you have still not answered my query concerning the material difference between and earthly scam and a religious one. The idea that Christianity uses grammatical spin to promote it’s reward system just aligns it more closely with the standard techniques of any competent scam artist imo.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
lper100km wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
lper100km wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
The hope of heaven in the gospel, all by itself, is not anymore motivated by misplaced trust and hucksterism than laissez fair economics. That men have been able to use it for sorded gain is an indictment of both them and the ones who were so easily led astray.
I see that heaven has been downgraded from a certainty to a hope in a few posts. Well, that’s some quick progress.
So, promoting the hope of heaven is OK because …?
It’s not OK to promote the hope of earthly future benefits because it’s sordid and an indictment of those who promote it and those who are lead astray.
Really. What in fact is the difference?
Christian hucksterism promising both earthly and heavenly rewards, is rife on TV, the mega churches, in the ‘activist’ churches and for all I know every church across the USA on every Sunday. Because it’s ‘Christian’, does this set it apart and make it OK?
The outcomes of peak oil will be determined by economics, by national interest and should owe little or nothing to religion of any kind. The one overriding danger at a national level is that someone or group with sufficient political power is motivated by some extreme religious belief that leads to irrational and devastating consequences. That is something of which we all should be afraid. I see no reason why a Christian would make any better informed decisions on any significant topic than any reasonable non religious person. In fact, I would prefer that such decisions be made rationally and without the encumbrance of a pre-conditioned mindset.
I had to come back to this one because I need to make sure I clarify what hope is according to the Bible.
If you look at the greek word translated hope in the New Testament is overwhelmingly the word elpis this means n expectation or a confidence.
In common English usage 'hope' is usually found in places like this.
"Are you going to get that money from your Dad this week?"
"I sure hope I do, I am broke."
Where the meaning is I am uncertain as to whether I will or won't get the money. That definition for hope does not fit the meaning of the Greek word that was translated as hope.
So I wanted to come back and reiterate that to those who are in Christ eternal life is not downgraded by the use of hope. The issue does raise some important questions about how faithful the English language versions are to the best meaning in the Greek. And even whether modern english as it evolves in places where it is spoken by not slowly make certain translations harder to understand for some.
A better (more faithful to the meaning) translation of the passage
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is accoding to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago' Titus 1:1,2
Might be this
'Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the expectation ( or confidence) of eternal lifem which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago'
There is not doubt either in God's promise or in His ability to deliver implied by the word elpis. Therefore a person trusting in the faithfulness of God (pistis) should have no doubt about eternal life.
What I intended to convey was that it is possible for those who believe to fall away and not return (Hebrews 6:4-8.) and therefore eternal life is not a foregone conclusion for everyone who claims to be Christian at the moment you meet them. That however is something that is between that person and God, ultimately. I do not believe that God easily gives up on those who are His, in fact only the son of perdition was lost, and for those who know about the debates over predestination and freewill this raises many important questions and interesting thoughts.
So, the way I spoke about that verse at first was wrong. The premise was right and there are other passages that support that, but the context was wrong. I stand corrected.
Expect, anticipate, wish, trust, have faith in, desire, aspire, plan, chance (of), likelihood (of), possibility (of) are grammatical synonyms of hope. All mean essentially the same thing ie that the event posited is less than certain of being fulfilled and furthermore, that the person ‘hoping’ is well aware that the outcome may not be favourable.
The Christian view has subtly attempted to spin a few of these into meaning a 100% positive outcome, when applied in context to the concept of being saved and being transported to an eternal life. You are simply reiterating this idea. Thus the hope or expectation of eternal life really means a certainty of eternal life to the Christian, providing the person is saved.
Why a faith concept should be predicated on mind numbing grammatical and etymological interpretations and the hair splittings of words that have very robust meanings in everyday use is grasping at straws. To try to suggest that these words have evolved different meanings is an ingenious diversion, but totally without justification. What has really happened is that the Christian community, or those here at any rate, have appropriated these words and applied a particular contextual meaning. Doesn’t make it so.
Since you referred to my post again, I note that you have still not answered my query concerning the material difference between and earthly scam and a religious one. The idea that Christianity uses grammatical spin to promote it’s reward system just aligns it more closely with the standard techniques of any competent scam artist imo.
Ooops, the word is a greek word elpis, and it means confidence, not the wishy washy maybe it will happen that is implied by the English common useage of the word hope. The translation is lacking. Anyways I am not really interested debating today, so if I can get a repreive. I wanted to point out this book to you guys which really shows why the dollar probably toast and that the writing was on the wall in the mid-90's.
'The United States of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy' T. R. Reid
Check it out, it will put you inside the New Europe without taking it too far.
Also I am wondering what y'all think about this verse and the argument I will make with it.
'No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him' John 6:44a
This means no one is saved apart from God first choosing to call them to Christ, ie to believe Jesus is the Messiah, and if
a) this verse is true
b) there has ever been one real Christian on earth
then God is real, and Jesus is who He claims to be. If not then no one is saved, but we could not yet claim there is no God, just that Jesus was not Him.
How many of you see the argument clearly and do you think there can be evidence of salvation in the life of a believer? Is it simply that one believes Jesus is the Messiah is that evidence enough or must there be more, perhaps a willingness to die for one's faith? Would it then be proof that there was at least one real Christian that Peter and Paul died holding strong their confessions that Jesus was who He claimed to be? _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
My question is, again, why there needs to be "proof" of matters of faith?
What is a "real Christian"?
Who decides who is or is not a "real Christian"?
What constitutes "evidence of salvation"?
Well because as I said faith is not an assumption which is how most who use the word intend it. It is a personal belief, they choose to believe it, or they think they have seen or heard enough things to tacitly assume that a god (their God) exists. As I pointed out earlier that is not Biblical faith. Biblical faith is placing your trust in Jesus whom you know personally because the Holy Spirit revealed to you that He was who He claimed to be.
'Behold I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with Him, and he with Me.' Revelation 3:20
There is nothing vague there, salvation creates a personal relationship with a living God, Jesus.
But can we also infer from this passage that not everyone hears His voice, and that of those, not everyone opens the door? _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Sun May 04, 2008 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12069 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
the Holy Spirit revealed to you that He was who He claimed to be.
Can you explain what that feels like? Is there a voice in your head talking to you? Or is it a "feeling" or what is it?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
There is nothing vague there, salvation creates a personal relationship with a living God, Jesus.
Can you explain what that personal relationship is like? Do you hear Jesus, do you literally see him? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
the Holy Spirit revealed to you that He was who He claimed to be.
Can you explain what that feels like? Is there a voice in your head talking to you? Or is it a "feeling" or what is it?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
There is nothing vague there, salvation creates a personal relationship with a living God, Jesus.
Can you explain what that personal relationship is like? Do you hear Jesus, do you literally see him?
I have know Christians who claim to have seen Jesus. And I know Christians who claim to hear the voice of God.
The Bible actually speaks of what it is like to hear God's voice, and it expressly says that He talks to us.
The greatest safeguard a Christian has when it comes to discerning the voice of God is the Bible itself. The Holy Spirit becomes God in us when we are born again, that is God calls to us and we hear the message of the gospel and believe it. If we hear that call, and believe the message (open the door) that is repent of sin and commit ourselves to Jesus as Lord, open the door of our hearts and let Him come in we recieve the Holy Spirit.
'But I tell you the truth it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.' John 16:7
'He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you.' John 16:13,14
So there is something like a confirmation, the holy Spirit will come into our hearts and in our hearts He will show us things that are yet to com, and He will glorify Jesus. How do you hear that voice. I have heard people describe it like the sound of a thousand waterfalls in the distance, a still small voice. Most importantly the Holy Spirit will compell us to believe and obey the Bible.
I'm telling you Ludi that if you ever have had this experience you would know it. Usually for quite some time after the born again experience you are completely carried along by the Spirit, and you see an intense trust in Christ, a belief that rises to the level of knowing.
What does it feel like? It feels like joy and peace, and sense of relief like a great burden is lifted from your shoulders. The Holy Spirit is not so much a voice in your head as an emmersive spiitual breeze that always shows you what is pleasing to God if you will listen.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.' the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:5-8
This Third Person of the Trinity comes into our hearts, God Himself living within us, and trust me you notice a difference.
Re-read the posts I have made, I have been as faithful to what I know of the Bible and my own experience with God as I can. Then ask yourself if there is any inkling within you to believe in Jesus, if there were a chance that it was true what would you not give up for the opportunity to know God?
In just this way do most that I have known come to know Jesus and the voice of God, which is the Spirit in our hearts that cries out to God as our dear Father and confirms for us true knowledge of the Scriptures.
Paul also explains what happens when one is born again.
'if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."'
Romans 10:9-11 _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
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