Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4069 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
You really should volunteer with the minutemen
Umm? What's in it for me?
zensui wrote:
Can we all agree that suffering must be diminished? ...Even with Jack's only-for-me aproach.
Why?
No - seriously - why?
Let us say we have an hypothetical individual (me, for example). I can consume more, perhaps depriving others. I make myself happy, and indirectly make others quite unhappy (they suffer more).
Or, I can consume less, perhaps leaving more for others. I do not make myself happy, but others' suffering is reduced.
I would like to see a response that does not appeal to moral or ethical constructs, since those represent indirect (and, arguably, unproven) benefits. Please tell me what, precisely, I gain by reducing the suffering of others.
Jack, you gain nothing from helping others only.
However, you quickly encounter the need to cooperate with others because they have things you need and you have things they need, so you bargain.
As you bargain, you become more cooperative because it helps you make better deals with people if you come to be known as a person who can be trusted and who isn't hard to deal with.
If you think you can make it on your own and don't need anything else from anyone, then you won't bargain.
But in either case, there is no reason for you to give an oink about anyone else, apart from the things they can do for you to make you happier.
But if you follow this logic a little farther, you find that some people are made happy by helping other people in some way. For these people, they get joy from doing things that appear "selfless", but they're not really selfless at all, it's just that their expression of selfishness is to help other people rather than take advantage of other people.
For you, I think the idea that your own happiness is your highest morality is fine. It doesn't lead to as bad a results as it sounds.
In many ways it's just an honest statement regarding what really motivates most people.
Think about it like this: if a person does something they think of as "selfless" and they say they do not do it out of self-interest, you have to ask them whether doing it made them happy. If doing the selfless act made them happy, then they did it out of their own self-interest and the act wasn't really selfless at all.
If they say doing it made them unhappy, then you would ask them why doing a good thing in the form of a selfless act would make a good person unhappy--shouldn't doing such a selfless act make a good person happy? The conclusion is that only a bad person would be unhappy as a result of doing a selfless act (and no one thinks of themselves as a bad person). _________________
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
BigTex wrote:
As you bargain, you become more cooperative because it helps you make better deals with people if you come to be known as a person who can be trusted and who isn't hard to deal with.
So adopting certain behavior patterns can result in gain. Simple manipulation, but I can see how it might work.
BigTex wrote:
If they say doing it made them unhappy, then you would ask them why doing a good thing in the form of a selfless act would make a good person unhappy--shouldn't doing such a selfless act make a good person happy? The conclusion is that only a bad person would be unhappy as a result of doing a selfless act (and no one thinks of themselves as a bad person).
Actually, a rational person would be unhappy about a selfless act. The act has a cost - in terms of time, if nothing else. If the rewards are not sufficient to justify the cost, then the selfless act was counterproductive. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4069 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
BigTex wrote:
If they say doing it made them unhappy, then you would ask them why doing a good thing in the form of a selfless act would make a good person unhappy--shouldn't doing such a selfless act make a good person happy? The conclusion is that only a bad person would be unhappy as a result of doing a selfless act (and no one thinks of themselves as a bad person).
Actually, a rational person would be unhappy about a selfless act. The act has a cost - in terms of time, if nothing else. If the rewards are not sufficient to justify the cost, then the selfless act was counterproductive.
Right, a rational person would only do something that appears to be "selfless" because he felt he would gain by doing it.
People do things like this all the time. I enjoy helping people any time I can because it makes me feel good. If it doesn't make me feel good, I don't do it. _________________
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 3953 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
BigTex wrote:
Jack wrote:
BigTex wrote:
If they say doing it made them unhappy, then you would ask them why doing a good thing in the form of a selfless act would make a good person unhappy--shouldn't doing such a selfless act make a good person happy? The conclusion is that only a bad person would be unhappy as a result of doing a selfless act (and no one thinks of themselves as a bad person).
Actually, a rational person would be unhappy about a selfless act. The act has a cost - in terms of time, if nothing else. If the rewards are not sufficient to justify the cost, then the selfless act was counterproductive.
Right, a rational person would only do something that appears to be "selfless" because he felt he would gain by doing it.
People do things like this all the time. I enjoy helping people any time I can because it makes me feel good. If it doesn't make me feel good, I don't do it.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
Actually, a rational person would be unhappy about a selfless act. The act has a cost - in terms of time, if nothing else. If the rewards are not sufficient to justify the cost, then the selfless act was counterproductive.
A rational person would know that he doesn't live forever. Your logic doesn't consider the finiteness of human life, seeking only personal advantage becomes insufficient once you take this into account.
What is the purpose of the "game" you strategize about ? To die with the highest position of power ? With the most toys ? With the most descendants ?
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
btu2012 wrote:
Victims never forget.
This simply means that the victims should be neutralized in such a way, and to such a degree, that they no longer pose a threat.
btu2012 wrote:
A rational person would know that he doesn't live forever. Your logic doesn't consider the finiteness of human life, seeking only personal advantage becomes insufficient once you take this into account.
What is the purpose of the "game" you strategize about ? To die with the highest position of power ? With the most toys ? With the most descendants ?
Yes, people die. So?
This simply uses religion to compel people to "play nice". Whether God (or Karma, or Moab, or whoever) sends one to Hell, or to live as a cockroach, or to whatever horrific fate the priests declare, the religion resorts to coercion. The only reason to help people is fear of a vengeful God (or Karma, or whatever).
So a God that does this is a fairly sadistic fellow, isn't he/she/it? And Karma, while (I suppose?) impersonal seems to have led to an interesting environment that produces lots of hate and discontent. So it is - so far at least - not effective. Hence, whatever created Karma is either a sadist, incompetent, or both.
I have no offspring, nor do I want any. I like a few toys, but I'll let others deal with the problems of over abundance. Power? No - one must endure too many stupid people.
My game? Simple enough. Complete the mission. What is the mission? Strictly my business.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4069 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack, you are no different from any of us.
You do what makes you happy.
You describe it in a way that makes it sound cold, calculating and hard. But it's not. It's just you seeking your own happiness.
Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand? If you haven't you should. In those books you will meet several very heroic characters just like yourself.
If you really want a good read on the power of the individual and the nature of freedom, read "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World" by Harry Browne. I think it's out of print, but it's available either used or in electronic format on his website. This book is really a powerful look at the same ideas you are describing--i.e., I do what makes me happy, and that is the beginning and end of my duty to any other person or to society at large. _________________
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
BigTex wrote:
Jack, you are no different from any of us.
You do what makes you happy.
You describe it in a way that makes it sound cold, calculating and hard. But it's not. It's just you seeking your own happiness.
Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand? If you haven't you should. In those books you will meet several very heroic characters just like yourself.
I've read, and thoroughly enjoyed, both volumes. I'll have to track down Browne's work.
But BigTex - of course I'm simply making myself happy. Of course that's just like everyone else. Sir, you belabor the obvious!
We have a subset of people on this board (not just here, I might add) that seem to spend a great deal of time advocating goodness, light, peace, justice, and all the rest of the "equine organic material". They become tedious. Very tedious.
If they want to go forth, feed the hungry, get called bwana, and for some bizarre reason that makes them happy, then they can have at it. But their efforts to persuade others gets old. I do not wish to go forth, do not care to smell (or feed) the hungry, and do not care to be called bwana.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
I do not wish to go forth, do not care to smell (or feed) the hungry,
Most of the peace-and-light types aren't doing those things either, Jack, they just talk about it a lot. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 3953 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Huh? Sometimes you just gotta help.
Why?
Except for the case where one is compelled by force (or the threat of force), I don't see it.
Why do people risk their life’s to save others , others they do not know and without giving it a thought. It happens all the time. I'm confused with your logic, very confused?
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