Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
vision-master wrote:
Why do people risk their life’s to save others , others they do not know and without giving it a thought. It happens all the time. I'm confused with your logic, very confused?
Why do they do it? I don't know. Perhaps they think they'll be a hero, beloved by the masses, honored by all, and never have to buy a drink again. Or, maybe they think God will issue them a platinum halo instead of the usual gold one.
Perhaps such people are merely victims of propaganda that promotes selfless behavior.
My logic is really very simple. I ask: "What's in it for me?"
If a hypothetical person firmly believes that they will get a platinum halo for certain behavior, and that's what they want, it's OK with me. However, motivation for someone else may not constitute motivation for me.
So, Vision-Master, you tell me - if you engage (or advocate engagement in) such behavior, what do you get out of it? The answer "a good feeling" seems grossly inadequate. One can get a good feeling with a cheap bamboo back scratcher. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4329 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Why do people risk their life’s to save others , others they do not know and without giving it a thought. It happens all the time. I'm confused with your logic, very confused?
Why do they do it? I don't know. Perhaps they think they'll be a hero, beloved by the masses, honored by all, and never have to buy a drink again. Or, maybe they think God will issue them a platinum halo instead of the usual gold one.
Perhaps such people are merely victims of propaganda that promotes selfless behavior.
My logic is really very simple. I ask: "What's in it for me?"
If a hypothetical person firmly believes that they will get a platinum halo for certain behavior, and that's what they want, it's OK with me. However, motivation for someone else may not constitute motivation for me.
So, Vision-Master, you tell me - if you engage (or advocate engagement in) such behavior, what do you get out of it? The answer "a good feeling" seems grossly inadequate. One can get a good feeling with a cheap bamboo back scratcher.
Boy, are you screwed up, or what? No point in debating this any further.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
vision-master wrote:
Boy, are you screwed up, or what? No point in debating this any further.
It appears you either cannot or will not define your reasons for acting as you do.
I offer you a simple experiment. Ask yourself why you perform a given act. When you find the reason, ask yourself why that is important to you. Pursue the line of questions until you get to fundamental reasons, the few basic elements which drive your actions. You may get interesting results.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4329 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Boy, are you screwed up, or what? No point in debating this any further.
It appears you either cannot or will not define your reasons for acting as you do.
I offer you a simple experiment. Ask yourself why you perform a given act. When you find the reason, ask yourself why that is important to you. Pursue the line of questions until you get to fundamental reasons, the few basic elements which drive your actions. You may get interesting results.
People help others sometimes and have no logical explanation in doing so.
Like seeing a person drowning and they just jump in to save the persons life.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
vision-master wrote:
Like seeing a person drowning and they just jump in to save the persons life.
No thought about it, they just react.
If there is no thought about it, if they just react, then there is no virtue in the act. It takes on the same moral value as blinking or coughing.
The purpose here - at least on my part - is not debate. I don't care to persuade you or anyone else to believe as I do. But the exploration of ideas is fun. At least for me.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4262 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Like seeing a person drowning and they just jump in to save the persons life.
No thought about it, they just react.
If there is no thought about it, if they just react, then there is no virtue in the act. It takes on the same moral value as blinking or coughing.
The purpose here - at least on my part - is not debate. I don't care to persuade you or anyone else to believe as I do. But the exploration of ideas is fun. At least for me.
The person who jumps in to save someone is not the same as blinking or coughing. There is thought involved in the act. It may be quick thought, or it may be thought that occurred at an earlier point in time, but it's definitely a conscious decision.
Over in the Greatest Day of Your Life thread, PrairieMule talked about the greatest day being the day he helped two people to shore who may have drowned otherwise. Helping them made it a great day for him.
I fell in a pool once when I was about five years old and I was in a complete freakout where I didn't know which way was up. I would have drowned, except a man pulled me out. I would do the same if I were in that position today. It would be an honor for me to be able to do something like that for someone.
These "virtue of selfishness" discussions get bogged down sometimes with the idea that there are no truly selfless acts, but it's very hard to show that any act is, in fact, selfless.
And I don't think that takes away from any good act that anyone chooses to do.
The interesting question, to me, is when you run into cases like the serial killer who derives genuine happiness from killing people. Obviously, a person like that cannot be allowed to pursue his happiness in any kind of civilized and orderly society, but the question is what to do with a person like that. Who has the authority? On what basis? That's a situation that's hard to sort out.
You can say that he must be executed, but isn't that just sort of mob rule? You can say there is justice in executing him, but whose justice? Who decides?
Libertarianism presupposes a level of enlightened self interest that probably runs into trouble with people who are deranged or otherwise mentally ill.
Even if you just say "liquidate them", the question is who makes the decision, and on what basis? _________________
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
(...)
zensui wrote:
Can we all agree that suffering must be diminished? ...Even with Jack's only-for-me aproach.
Why?
No - seriously - why?
Let us say we have an hypothetical individual (me, for example). I can consume more, perhaps depriving others. I make myself happy, and indirectly make others quite unhappy (they suffer more).
Or, I can consume less, perhaps leaving more for others. I do not make myself happy, but others' suffering is reduced.
I would like to see a response that does not appeal to moral or ethical constructs, since those represent indirect (and, arguably, unproven) benefits. Please tell me what, precisely, I gain by reducing the suffering of others.
suffering is reduced for everyone when one starts searching for permanent happyness. Basically that's the key. If you are searching happyness by consuming more, it will be an impermanent happyness. It's more about being content with current possessions, which is easy if those possessions let someone survive. Your thirst for material possession, if never satiated will make your life myserable and unhappy.
So, lets say you consume some new shinny product. For how much time will you be happy? What happens when you see an advertising for the new version of the shinny product? That type of happyness is inferior to one based on being content and compassionate, it doesn't add up given enough time. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
(...)
btu2012 wrote:
A rational person would know that he doesn't live forever. Your logic doesn't consider the finiteness of human life, seeking only personal advantage becomes insufficient once you take this into account.
What is the purpose of the "game" you strategize about ? To die with the highest position of power ? With the most toys ? With the most descendants ?
Yes, people die. So?
This simply uses religion to compel people to "play nice". Whether God (or Karma, or Moab, or whoever) sends one to Hell, or to live as a cockroach, or to whatever horrific fate the priests declare, the religion resorts to coercion. The only reason to help people is fear of a vengeful God (or Karma, or whatever).
So a God that does this is a fairly sadistic fellow, isn't he/she/it? And Karma, while (I suppose?) impersonal seems to have led to an interesting environment that produces lots of hate and discontent. So it is - so far at least - not effective. Hence, whatever created Karma is either a sadist, incompetent, or both.
I have no offspring, nor do I want any. I like a few toys, but I'll let others deal with the problems of over abundance. Power? No - one must endure too many stupid people.
My game? Simple enough. Complete the mission. What is the mission? Strictly my business.
Deities have no relevance in Buddhism. And from your post you're understanding Karma as Sin, it's not.
There's positive and negative karma. Positive seeds cultivate positive fruit, negative seeds cultivate negative fruit. This fruits can be collected in this current life. After you realise how this continuous flow of intentionality made real, it's rational to cultivate only positive seeds and don't cultivate negative seeds. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Jack wrote:
(...)
We have a subset of people on this board (not just here, I might add) that seem to spend a great deal of time advocating goodness, light, peace, justice, and all the rest of the "equine organic material". They become tedious. Very tedious.
If they want to go forth, feed the hungry, get called bwana, and for some bizarre reason that makes them happy, then they can have at it. But their efforts to persuade others gets old. I do not wish to go forth, do not care to smell (or feed) the hungry, and do not care to be called bwana.
I share Buddhism in rare ocasions. In this website, I share it as a practice that can keep one healthy before, when and after TSHTF. Meditation is quite useful for changing mind to be healthier. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
zensui wrote:
Jack wrote:
(...)
We have a subset of people on this board (not just here, I might add) that seem to spend a great deal of time advocating goodness, light, peace, justice, and all the rest of the "equine organic material". They become tedious. Very tedious.
If they want to go forth, feed the hungry, get called bwana, and for some bizarre reason that makes them happy, then they can have at it. But their efforts to persuade others gets old. I do not wish to go forth, do not care to smell (or feed) the hungry, and do not care to be called bwana.
I share Buddhism in rare ocasions. In this website, I share it as a practice that can keep one healthy before, when and after TSHTF. Meditation is quite useful for changing mind to be healthier.
Interesting perspective but rather self centered is it not ? The ultimate goal is self satisfaction and personal fullfillment, with a little "good works" tossed in for good measure.
What makes you think TSHTF has allready happened to some ? Do you think PO is a big deal to the guy who just returned from IRAQ who has had all his limbs shot off ?
What makes Bhudism so special ? We already have a world filled with people seeking personal fullfillment, why should I think Bhudism is so great ? Sounds no different than what we live in now.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
AlwaysThere wrote:
zensui wrote:
Jack wrote:
(...)
We have a subset of people on this board (not just here, I might add) that seem to spend a great deal of time advocating goodness, light, peace, justice, and all the rest of the "equine organic material". They become tedious. Very tedious.
If they want to go forth, feed the hungry, get called bwana, and for some bizarre reason that makes them happy, then they can have at it. But their efforts to persuade others gets old. I do not wish to go forth, do not care to smell (or feed) the hungry, and do not care to be called bwana.
I share Buddhism in rare ocasions. In this website, I share it as a practice that can keep one healthy before, when and after TSHTF. Meditation is quite useful for changing mind to be healthier.
Interesting perspective but rather self centered is it not ? The ultimate goal is self satisfaction and personal fullfillment, with a little "good works" tossed in for good measure.
What makes you think TSHTF has allready happened to some ? Do you think PO is a big deal to the guy who just returned from IRAQ who has had all his limbs shot off ?
What makes Bhudism so special ? We already have a world filled with people seeking personal fullfillment, why should I think Bhudism is so great ? Sounds no different than what we live in now.
Someone that has a healthy and wise mind can help much better than someone that is not. And in the same quote I said to share this method to those that want to have a healthier and wiser mind.
The ultimate goal is cessation of suffering, by among others, to stop craving for personal pleasure.
Someone that returned from Iraq, as an invasor, is just victim of his/her own karma.
So Buddhism (not Bhudism) sounds not special to you? Do you know basic Buddhism? Do you know about nirvana, anatta, ahimsa, boddhi nature, metta, pratitya-samutpada and the seven factors of enlightenment? I guess not, since you confuse Buddhism with some "feel good and personal pleasure" non sense. _________________ anagami.net
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