Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Chill, it's all going to work out without severe political upheaval.
1%
[ 1 ]
There's going to be pain but Socialism will fix it all!
7%
[ 4 ]
Grab the popcorn! We're going to crash and burn!
45%
[ 26 ]
Not sure, but there's going to be pain!
45%
[ 26 ]
Total Votes : 57
Author
Message
jlw61 Intermediate Crude
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
I'm tired, so perhaps I should not be reading this crap.
When I read articles like this I begin to ask myself if a soft landing is going to be a good thing. One of the most difficult tasks we face is educating the public to the incideous charms and immoral aspects of socialism. The story has all of the hallmarks of someone trying to sell something they don't want you to think about:
Blame the Jews:
Quote:
Can it be that the last stage of the U.S. takedown is “The Project for the New American Century”? Is this ambitious plan for “global leadership” through military might that was seemingly invented by the “neocons”—many with dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship—a Trojan Horse?
...
The last official act of this phase could well be the ultimate insanity of a U.S. attack on Iran . If successful, this would complete the Western conquest of the Middle East but may start a larger conflict that could eventually force the U.S. to withdraw its forces once the money runs out. Israel would then be at liberty to sweep in to dominate a region that U.S. military power had devastated.
F.U.D - The evil financiers are out to get us.
Quote:
As far as the U.S. is concerned, the financiers will have used us for a century, then thrown us in the trash. The U.S. may well be replaced by China, which the financiers seem to be grooming as the world’s next military enforcer. China has the advantage of an absolutist one-party system which has achieved remarkable success in terrorizing its huge population into obedience and passivity. The financiers would not hesitate to sacrifice hordes of Chinese to fight both Russia and what may remain of the U.S.
F.U.D.
Quote:
We have been used and abused, though often suckered into it by our own stupidity and greed. We have allowed ourselves to serve the will of an alien force—the world’s financial elite. Our payback now appears to be a looming national catastrophe.
Dreams of wealth for all.
Quote:
The concept of a guaranteed income as a benefit of a modern industrial economy has been around for a long time.
Appeal with sound, reasoned arguments:
Quote:
To accomplish a program of real reform will require a strong president but possibly a political revolution to get one. Congressman Ron Paul has made history as the first major presidential candidate to call for the abolishment of the Federal Reserve. He is right. The first thing a president worthy of the name should do is eliminate the Federal Reserve as a bank-of-issue, get rid of our debt-based monetary system, and depose the bankers and Wall Street financiers from the seats of power. Ron Paul is also right that the U.S. should withdraw its military from overseas and stop trying to control the world.
And then hit them with the "solution"!
Quote:
A guaranteed income, followed by a National Dividend, should be paid directly to citizens from a Treasury credit account without recourse to either taxation or government borrowing. (C.H. Douglas’s theory of the National Dividend as the monetization of the net appreciation of the productivity of a modern industrial economy is set forth in this author’s Global Research article entitled, “An Emergency Program of Monetary Reform for the United States ,” April 26, 2007.) The National Dividend, currently estimated at over $12,000 per capita annually, could be distributed in a variety of ways, in addition to a subsistence stipend. This could include price subsidies for consumer purchases, taking over existing Social Security payments, universal health insurance, or payments to women with young children. Another way to issue a National Dividend would be to monetize food production, whereby anyone who delivers food products to wholesalers receives a government payment as a producer’s subsidy, thereby discounting food at the consumer point-of-sale.
If you talk fast and don't think about it, it all sounds really good. However, here is what would happen at a corner near you.
There are times like today when I think that Shakespeare had it right when he said "If it were done when ‘tis done, then ‘twere well It were done quickly."
The problems we face are as obvious as they are difficult to resolve. The real problem though is making people understand that government is not the answer and that the answer lies in each of us. The modern constructs of the US government in banking, business and social welfare have for the most part proved to be abject failures. This however does not mean that capitalism has failed, but that the people have failed to understand their role in controlling the excess of government. Unfortunately time is growing short and there is much to teach.
I fear that the Marxist bastards will have their way in the end and that we will all suffer terribly. Thus the only way I see of preventing it is praying for a quick end so that there is hope for a new beginning. Marxism has failed every time, yet it is is the path desperate people seem to gravitate towards.
The solutions are rather straight forward yet difficult because of their simplicity. Here are but a few:
Understand real wealth: Wealth is created by invention and labor. It is not created by passing promises to pay to the next guy or borrowing against future earnings.
Understand the role of government: Government is there to protect your rights and the borders. It is not there to tell you how to live or to limit your rights. Your rights are naturally limited when they interfere with the rights of others.
Understand economics: Economics are part of nature, which is finite. For every resource used, there is less of that resource. This is the fundamental flaw in modern economics and has been pointed out time and again in these forums.
Understand that you own yourself, and the fruits of your labor: Nobody has the right to demand the fruits of your labor nor do they have the right to demand that someone takes it from you. If someone takes something from you by force, that is theft, whether it is by a person or a government. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
vision-master wrote:
Quote:
I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
You say nothing about the physiological, physical, spiritual, personal or family consequences of a hard crash.
Nope, I haven't. I wanted to keep the starting post down to a reasonable length. I'm looking at one of the probable events (socialists taking advantage of the situation to further their agenda) and opining upon the difficulties we face in educating the public to resist what appears to be an easy fix but is in actuality one of the surest ways to increase the suffering.
The typical leader(s) of a socialist or fascist movement will appeal to the selfish side of the masses in order to get into power. They will promise past glories, plenty for all, without once explaining how it will happen (let alone be afforded). Once in power, the competition is "liquidated" and the people get the government they deserve. The only good thing about it is that such a transition would likely be short lived (historically speaking) and while hard on the population in the short term, would probably end up as a good thing long term. Good because once and for all the myth of the all-encompassing government solution would likely end. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
Pops wrote:
I didn't see any option about
Get Off Your Chair and Do Something.
Did I miss it?
Nope, it's not there. This is an opinion poll... However, that's REALLY GOOD ADVICE! Getting active will help locally and if enough people get active, it can make a difference. If people got off their asses, yeah, a lot of things would change quickly. However, today I'm looking into a black void called the future. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4159 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
Really great post.
Mostly spot on.
But the royal elite while knowing about overshoot and peak oil...miss calculated climate change and its rapid onset.
Changes we are seeing today were not to happen for another 50 or 150 years...plenty of time to cull the herd...and power down to reduce GHG emmissions...
Iran should have been attacked last year, but something stopped the machine...news of the Siberian thawing and massive ice sheets dropping into the ocean gave the royal elite pause. You are watching what David de Rothschild is doing ...right?
Quote:
Instead of getting fitted for a smoking jacket, the London-based de Rothschild has launched himself on a series of grand expeditions to the corners of the earth. His aim: to use the romance of adventure, and the power of the Internet, to unite the world's schoolchildren in the fight against global warming and environmental degradation.
They still need a herd to work in slave camps so methane poisoning of the human species is not gonna work out real well.
Sooooo...like the messages on the Georgia Guidestones...found in this book...and endorsed currently by Al Gore and company...global genocide is rolled out fast track style.
Oh yes...it will be a bone crushing thud. _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1631 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
jlw61 wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Quote:
I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
You say nothing about the physiological, physical, spiritual, personal or family consequences of a hard crash.
Nope, I haven't. I wanted to keep the starting post down to a reasonable length. I'm looking at one of the probable events (socialists taking advantage of the situation to further their agenda) and opining upon the difficulties we face in educating the public to resist what appears to be an easy fix but is in actuality one of the surest ways to increase the suffering.
The typical leader(s) of a socialist or fascist movement will appeal to the selfish side of the masses in order to get into power. They will promise past glories, plenty for all, without once explaining how it will happen (let alone be afforded). Once in power, the competition is "liquidated" and the people get the government they deserve. The only good thing about it is that such a transition would likely be short lived (historically speaking) and while hard on the population in the short term, would probably end up as a good thing long term. Good because once and for all the myth of the all-encompassing government solution would likely end.
Take some time to read Karl Marx before mouthing off like a Fox conditioned drone! _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
americandream wrote:
jlw61 wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Quote:
I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
You say nothing about the physiological, physical, spiritual, personal or family consequences of a hard crash.
Nope, I haven't. I wanted to keep the starting post down to a reasonable length. I'm looking at one of the probable events (socialists taking advantage of the situation to further their agenda) and opining upon the difficulties we face in educating the public to resist what appears to be an easy fix but is in actuality one of the surest ways to increase the suffering.
The typical leader(s) of a socialist or fascist movement will appeal to the selfish side of the masses in order to get into power. They will promise past glories, plenty for all, without once explaining how it will happen (let alone be afforded). Once in power, the competition is "liquidated" and the people get the government they deserve. The only good thing about it is that such a transition would likely be short lived (historically speaking) and while hard on the population in the short term, would probably end up as a good thing long term. Good because once and for all the myth of the all-encompassing government solution would likely end.
Take some time to read Karl Marx before mouthing off like a Fox conditioned drone!
Fox news drone... Yeah, right.
BTW, in my political science class back in the 80's, the study of Marx was a required part of the course. So before you go mouthing, try thinking about using some facts and logic instead of insults and emotion. It will get you a lot farther in discussions.
You know, like:
Karl Marx was a very intelligent man who seemed to have a Utopian vision on how the world could work. Utopian visions are good, even if they are unreachable, because they give us an end point to work towards. However, Marx's failing was the failing of all Utopian dreamers (yes, that includes libertarians). He forgot the one fundamental flaw in human nature that can not yet be gotten around. That flaw is the very essence of human nature and it is called self interest.
Self interest is important as it provides survival to the individual (and anyone who says it is not important should immediately sacrifice themselves so that some child in a remote part of the world can eat tomorrow). Self interest, however, can turn to greed and other destructive emotions. The sad thing is that it's not that far of a ride from healthy self interest to avarice. Self interest does not like to bargain, it seldom rests, and it will not ever stop being part of human nature. Self interest is at the heart of being human and you ignore it at your peril.
Quote:
Note to americandream:I notice how well communism as fared with all of those nice modern historical references and current examples of leaders who are so concerned with the affairs of the proletarian masses. Oh wait, if socialism works, why are there rich, powerful leaders who go around oppressing its citizens and taking over other countries with force?
Ok, that last one is unfair because those Buddhist monks carry AK-47s and hand grenades under their robes wherever they go.
Isn't socialism supposed to lead to a natural classless and leaderless society? As it turns out, the human expression of socialism is on the opposite side of the spectrum from fascism and both invariably end up as totalitarianism (how you get there is irrelevant, the fact is that's where you end up politically).
It is very arguable that the solution to the world's ills is freedom and education. IMHO, the best route is to take into account human nature, create a government who's only job is to protect the rights of the people, and educate the public in their duties to freedom. Human nature, being what it is (of course) will never allow you to create the perfect government, because over time greed and lust for power will creep into the system. I would contend however that the experiment in freedom, as defined by the US constitution, has allowed it's citizens a much better run than most other forms of modern government.
So, can you advance the topic with a thoughtful post as to why socialism is superior or would you simply like to post another snarky remark that does nothing to showcase your thoughtful intellect? _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
roccman wrote:
Really great post.
Mostly spot on.
Thanks!
Quote:
They still need a herd to work in slave camps so methane poisoning of the human species is not gonna work out real well.
I understand the basics of world-wide methane poinsoning, but I wonder if perhaps this is not overblown somewhat? The Siberian tundra used to be, as I understand it, in the upper temperate zone instead of frozen tundra. So that means the world was a much warmer place. The evidence is in the stomachs of woolly mammoth carcasses. So has there been that much methane sequestered away in the last 100,000 years? Is this something new to the world or have these hydrates been building up for millions of years?
I'm not saying "no way", but I am asking "are we really that sure of the danger?" After all, mining these hydrates seems to be a pretty straight forward science. Also, could we not simply mine the methane, thus relieving us from this potential fate?
BTW, can't you use methane in fuel cells? And if so, don't fuel cells give off water as the main emission? I'm not up on fuel cells, since I've so far viewed them as part of the "hydrogen economy" dead end, so links would be very helpful. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4159 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
jlw61 wrote:
So has there been that much methane sequestered away in the last 100,000 years? Is this something new to the world or have these hydrates been building up for millions of years?
Google the Precambian Extinction Event some 200 million years ago.
A change of 6 degrees C or so set these hydrates in motion...the oceans died...and so did 98% of all species.
Currently we are on the same course. _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
vision-master wrote:
You sound like a collage student studying PO from afar.
Well, I am finishing my degree, so I guess technically that makes me a college student, even at my age. I'm studying PO, but not as a college student. And I'm in Virginia...
So to you I guess I would be a college student, studying PO, from afar (as compared to someone from say, Wisconsin who would be a college student, studying PO, from anear).
Is there a point to your comment, or was that just another attempt to disparage? _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 560 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: I'm Starting to Hope for a Hard Crash
roccman wrote:
jlw61 wrote:
So has there been that much methane sequestered away in the last 100,000 years? Is this something new to the world or have these hydrates been building up for millions of years?
Google the Precambian Extinction Event some 200 million years ago.
A change of 6 degrees C or so set these hydrates in motion...the oceans died...and so did 98% of all species.
- Precambrian period (4.6 billion to 523 million years ago)
- Vendian period (523-543 million years ago)
- Both Precambrian and Vendian periods host to at least one mass extinction each
The first extinction of the Precambrian, which largely affected stromatolites and acritarchs, has been correlated with a large glaciation event that occurred about 600 million years ago. This event was of such severity that almost all micro-organisms were completely wiped out.
Now the Permian Extinction Event happened around 248 million years ago. Cause unknown but the closest theory involving sulfates was remarked as:
Quote:
The fourth and final suggestion that paleontologists have formulated credits the Permian mass extinction as a result of basaltic lava eruptions in Siberia. These volcanic eruptions were large and sent a quantity of sulphates into the atmosphere. Evidence in China supports that these volcanic eruptions may have been silica-rich, and thus explosive, a factor that would have produced large ash clouds around the world. The combination of sulphates in the atmosphere and the ejection of ash clouds may have lowered global climatic conditions. The age of the lava flows has also been dated to the interval in which the Permian mass extinction occurred.
Now the Proterozoic Era (2.3 billion to 543 million years ago) seems to be when the methane was pulled out and oxygen began taking over the process... not sure on this, just skimming a few web sites like this.
I'm not doubting you, but I'm having trouble finding the information you suggested. I've read stories regarding the methane bomb but I can't find scientific or study sites to corroborate the stories. Perhaps you have a few links? _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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