Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
joeltrout wrote:
KillTheHumans wrote:
but is there actually a major somewhere called "Landman"?
Good question because it is a position that is not known by many outside the industry and even inside the industry not everyone realizes what landmen do.
Kick around oil companies long enough and you figure out how parts of it work. Heck, I once played "landman" when bored. The interesting part is how the 4 landmen I knew all came about being landmen, and none of them started in the same place by any means.
joeltrout wrote:
Yes it is a business degree called either Petroleum Land Management or Energy Management. Basicly every well that is drilled in the US is started by a landman. He is the person who finds out who the mineral owner is, negotiates an oil and gas lease with them, then negotiates surface damages with the surface owner, and once that is taken care of then the seismic or drilling is lead by the geologist and/or engineers.
I might expand that definition a little and include problem solving at later points in time as well, renegotiating leases because of pipeline issues springs to mind. I've never known a landman with the degree you mention though.
joeltrout wrote:
Every oil and gas company has a land department and usually uses outside land companies (brokers) to do work for them also.
Thanks for the list of places which have that degree. Bigger, state type schools by the look of them. Like I said, I've only known a few and none of them had that kind of professional background. although they probably didn't cover quite the ground that a professional with a degree might, experience wise. _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 919 Location: Land of the Tongva tribe
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
KillTheHumans wrote:
I've never known a landman with the degree you mention though.
I agree. Most landmen here in California do not have a PLM or EM degree because the closet school to offer the degree is Texas or Oklahoma. Many out here migrate over from the real estate business when real estate is slow or when oil prices are high.
I think there are only 6 schools in the US and Canada that offer it. California State University BAkersfield had a PLM and the University of Texas had programs but they dissolved during the oil bust.
There was a time when being a landman meant searching for another job because oil prices were so low for so long. Right now the programs at the schools are growing like crazy because of the scholarships, internships, and full-time jobs.
In the past a PLM or EM degree wasn't necessary. Actually no degree was necessary if you knew how to run title and had good negotiating skills.
Now however, since more and more people are getting into the industry it helps a lot when some can say they actually have a degree in PLM or EM.
I don't know if you noticed but the courses that the degree covers is very diverse. They take business classes, engineering classes, geology, real property law, oil and gas law, and the standard general education course.
joeltrout _________________ ENERGY is the basis of our industrial civilization and sustains our standard of living. It is the foundation stone of our national wealth. A nation starved of energy.....will be a nation of starving people.
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 480 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
seahorse wrote:
On a side note, I'm curious as to why there is so little recognition of the issue in the industry?
Good question. To get a good grasp of Peak Oil, one needs to understand a little science. Things like flow rates, decline rates, etc, etc. It is not essential but it helps a ton. Many of the higher ups have backgrounds in finance and business. Not science.
But I think that only explains a portion of the issue. There really is a bunch of oil out there and many of the oil companies know that. The problem is that we can't get to it. Many see Peak Oil as an artificial problem. I am kind of in this camp because in a "perfect" world where Big Oil could go in and use ultra-advanced techniques, global oil production could be way higher than it is now. Of course, this will never happen. So its like comparing apples and oranges.
Quote:
But, what is a rational response by a company? I think several things could be done. Here's a list of things that jump out at me:
(1) Standardize terms - its my understanding, and I may be wrong, that various terms for categorizing reserves, resources etc have no real standard definitions, thus, its difficult for anyone to really assess where we are. I would hope the industry would work diligently to standardize terms. Nationally, and I know everyone hates regulation, but I believe that Congress or the SEC should require, to the extent its possible, standardization of terms;
(2) Increased reporting based on standardized terms - we need increased reporting of all resources/reserves to the SEC using standardized terms. In this way, good companies go up in value and the poor companies that have been b.s ing go down in value and get gobbled up. We need money to be flowing to the companies that deserve it;
There are strict accounting standards about what a publicly traded oil company can book as reserves. I forget the exact accounting standard but its pretty rigorous. Maybe you were talking about the big national oil companies who don't have to follow these standards? _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 919 Location: Land of the Tongva tribe
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
big_rc wrote:
seahorse wrote:
On a side note, I'm curious as to why there is so little recognition of the issue in the industry?
Good question. To get a good grasp of Peak Oil, one needs to understand a little science. Things like flow rates, decline rates, etc, etc. It is not essential but it helps a ton. Many of the higher ups have backgrounds in finance and business. Not science.
But I think that only explains a portion of the issue. There really is a bunch of oil out there and many of the oil companies know that. The problem is that we can't get to it. Many see Peak Oil as an artificial problem. I am kind of in this camp because in a "perfect" world where Big Oil could go in and use ultra-advanced techniques, global oil production could be way higher than it is now. Of course, this will never happen. So its like comparing apples and oranges.
It is also good to note that any oil company that has been in business for more than 5 years has seen peak oil in their fields. Every oil company knows that once you start producing a field you are draining that field. Companies use more than 1 well per field in order to retrieve as much oil as possible and as quickly as possible. And in most instances they are required to drill in their leases or they must surrender and quitclaim those other portions.
So companies know a lot about peak oil in a micro-view. The problem is most of the oil companies in the US are small, indepdent, family owned oil companies that are focused on finding their next barrel of oil. They don't worry about overall global peak oil because they have no real impact on that. Even companies like Apache, Devon, etc... are tiny compared to National Oil Companies (NOC).
NOC are the ones who can tell the world about peak oil but they are the ones who are keeping their mouths shut. Most US oil companies are too busy to pay attention to anything on a global scale. They dont have enough time to do all they want in their small fields.
joeltrout _________________ ENERGY is the basis of our industrial civilization and sustains our standard of living. It is the foundation stone of our national wealth. A nation starved of energy.....will be a nation of starving people.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
Big_RC
You asked if I was referring to SEC reporting requirements or NOCs, which don't report. Obviously, in an ideal world, the NOCs would have to report, but I don't think that's going to happen.
However, from what little I understand, even though the SEC has reporting requirements and I guess definitions of those requirements, there is still disagreement as to how certain terms are defined. For example, in the Oil and Gas Journal editorial of April 21, 2008, it discusses the recent publicity of the Brazilian finds and how the press often confuses certain terminology, but also, how in the industry itself there is no agreement on the definition of "reserves."
Quote:
In the ambiguous realm of oil and gas reserves, confusion is understandable. The industry that finds and produces fluid hydrocarbons, after all, has yet to agree even on a definition of the term. Enthusiastic officials and news reporters can be forgiven their occasional mishandling of the numbers.
Again, I don't fully understand the issues and definitions, but it would seem that for anyone to fully get a hold of the PO issue, we would have to have standard definitions of all terms by the entire industry (at least outside the NOCs) and greater reporting requirements, which will not happen unless the various gov'ts require it out of some type of emergency measures to formulate policy responses on the energy issues. I don't see how the U.S., for example, could have a "energy plan" without established definitions of terms and without a clear picture of at least what is available outside the NOCs. How can we have a plan without a clearer picture?
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
joeltrout wrote:
In the past a PLM or EM degree wasn't necessary. Actually no degree was necessary if you knew how to run title and had good negotiating skills.
Yup. Those are the ones I knew, and you are right about becoming real estate people when things were slow, one of the ones I knew was a commercial real estate person when she wasn't "landmanning".
joeltrout wrote:
I don't know if you noticed but the courses that the degree covers is very diverse. They take business classes, engineering classes, geology, real property law, oil and gas law, and the standard general education course.
joeltrout
I didn't check out the curriculum, but none of those courses you mention would surprise me at all, having watched them in action. _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
big_rc wrote:
seahorse wrote:
On a side note, I'm curious as to why there is so little recognition of the issue in the industry?
Good question. To get a good grasp of Peak Oil, one needs to understand a little science. Things like flow rates, decline rates, etc, etc. It is not essential but it helps a ton.
Ain't that the truth. I wouldn't limit that observation to companies only though, at least they have a concept of what they do for a living and how. The last CFO I worked with knew more than his fair share about flowrates and decline rates and drilling operations. He ran a mid sized eastern gas company before he became CFO in another company though. Their professional background might lead one to be suspicious of their knowledge of actual field operations, but it doesn't mean that hanging around the industry for 20 didn't teach them SOMETHING. _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 480 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
seahorse2 wrote:
Big_RC
You asked if I was referring to SEC reporting requirements or NOCs, which don't report. Obviously, in an ideal world, the NOCs would have to report, but I don't think that's going to happen.
However, from what little I understand, even though the SEC has reporting requirements and I guess definitions of those requirements, there is still disagreement as to how certain terms are defined. For example, in the Oil and Gas Journal editorial of April 21, 2008, it discusses the recent publicity of the Brazilian finds and how the press often confuses certain terminology, but also, how in the industry itself there is no agreement on the definition of "reserves."
Oh yeah. You are right about that. There are a whole bunch of different kind of "reserves" and those numbers get thrown around with wild abandon. The reserves that Big Oil reports are Proved reserves or P90 and there are all kinds of US reporting requirements of what makes up a P90 reserve.
Where it gets hairy is the Probable (P50) and Possible (P10) stuff that range from not much evidence to a wild ass guess. Whenever reporters throw out big numbers from foriegn countries(like the stuff in Brazil), they are probably from that P50 to P10 bunch. Then again, I would take any reserve reporting from any country outside the US that comes through the mainstream press with a huge grain of salt. _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 269 Location: Houston, TX
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
joeltrout wrote:
KillTheHumans wrote:
but is there actually a major somewhere called "Landman"?
Good question because it is a position that is not known by many outside the industry and even inside the industry not everyone realizes what landmen do.
Yes it is a business degree called either Petroleum Land Management or Energy Management. Basicly every well that is drilled in the US is started by a landman. He is the person who finds out who the mineral owner is, negotiates an oil and gas lease with them, then negotiates surface damages with the surface owner, and once that is taken care of then the seismic or drilling is lead by the geologist and/or engineers.
Every oil and gas company has a land department and usually uses outside land companies (brokers) to do work for them also.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
misterno wrote:
joeltrout
The link you gave from Univ of Houston is for a 1 year certificate. So is it possible to get those salaries with 1 yr certificate?
Also, what was your major in college? Do you think someone with engineering undergrad and MBA in finance will fit into landman position?
I know the backgrounds of approximately 4 landmen. One was a lawyer who couldn't pass the bar exam ( 3 tries when he gave up ).
The second was a dairy farmer with experience in title work through various odd jobs over the years, and a knack for negotiation.
The third was a commercial real estate woman who does it in bursts when a company needs her, flies her somewhere, she works in the courthouse, she comes home after a month, repeats as necessary. She started as a secretary in an oil and gas company, which is where she learned about title work. Does real estate, just like Joel said, when she isn't doing general title work.
The fourth was a petroleum engineer grad working as an executive assistant who, when needed, chipped in, not much experience, but she ended up running her own oil and gas company, in part because of her skills "massaging" over little problems with state permitting, landowners, UIC folks, and such.
Quite a range of backgrounds, so engineering and finance should work fine. I should point out something Joel mentioned though, at the end of the day, NONE of these people did it full time forever as a career. When the slow times came, their positions were dicey at best, more likely gone. _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 919 Location: Land of the Tongva tribe
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
misterno wrote:
joeltrout
The link you gave from Univ of Houston is for a 1 year certificate. So is it possible to get those salaries with 1 yr certificate?
I do not know what salaries they are getting from there. Some people that attend are people that work full-time and don't have time to go back to a 4-year degree. The salaries I am familiar with are University of Oklahoma graduates.
misterno wrote:
Also, what was your major in college?
My major was actually economics because I thought I wanted to work in oil and gas compliance. However I took several EM courses and personally knew the director of the program who allowed me to take summer internships. My brother and roommate both graduated with an EM degree. One works in the permian basin and one works in central Oklahoma. Each make around $78,000. My brother is 24 yrs old and my old roommate is 23 yrs old.
misterno wrote:
Do you think someone with engineering undergrad and MBA in finance will fit into landman position?
Yes. However you might research some engineering firms that do research on oil and gas projects. Many projects they work on is research because a company is selling assets or a company wants a 3rd party valuation to purchase an asset. They also work on research such as reserve reports, decline curves, etc... Below are two firms that do that. I would encourage you to call them and even submit your resume for them to look over. Engineers are in as much demand if not more demand than landman and usually receive slightly higher salaries.
If you are interested in landwork without getting a degree, the AAPL has workshops and other information that could be helpful in gaining an understanding of what landwork is.
If you are seriously thinking about getting into landwork I would suggest doing so quickly. The industry has seen a large surge in college graduates in PLM/EM programs and also many real estate professionals are going into landwork since there are many similiarities and real estate is in the dumps right now.
joeltrout _________________ ENERGY is the basis of our industrial civilization and sustains our standard of living. It is the foundation stone of our national wealth. A nation starved of energy.....will be a nation of starving people.
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 2620 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
Perhaps we should invite back some of the knowledgeable posters from the site's early days we haven't heard from in a while, like Antimatter, for a thread about the situation as it stands. Purely nuts and bolts stuff, nix on agendas.
I PM'ed Sparaxis for the David Blume biofuel thread, he chimed in. Can be done. _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain!
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
joeltrout wrote:
I would encourage you to call them and even submit your resume for them to look over. Engineers are in as much demand if not more demand than landman and usually receive slightly higher salaries.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Do you work in the oil industry?
TheDude wrote:
Perhaps we should invite back some of the knowledgeable posters from the site's early days we haven't heard from in a while, like Antimatter, for a thread about the situation as it stands. Purely nuts and bolts stuff, nix on agendas.
Nah...those guys, the "experts" which really were, once you run them off, you think they are wild about sharing anything interesting they might have anymore? I go to petroleum conferences and can't even get the other folks who went to chime in and let us know how THEIR conference went. _________________ Freddy RULZ!
www.TrendLines.ca/scenarios.htm Home of the Real Peak Date ... set by geologists (not pundits) (or bankers) (or web "experts")
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