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zeke
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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Well, just finished reading "The Party's Over" at the suggestion of someone here.
I'd read kunstler's TLE back in 2005.
I can honestly say that the message of both books is very close to being identical.
the difference? Kunstler's approach is "WTF are you doing!?!? Can't You SEE the WOS we're in???"
Heinberg's approach: "Here are the (spine chilling) facts. I'll leave it up to you, but here are some tips."
IOW, both authors get to the same place, both in terms of history, facts, and theorization about what's likely to happen IF this or that.
I still have no problem with Kunstler's approach, because we ARE in deep $hit, and we HAVE made some deliriously stupid choices as a culture.
Heinberg is prbly more likely to catch more eyes and ears with his more even-handed tone, but the two are essentially delivering the same message.
Just how I see it.
I would add that Kunstler's approach and whether it appears Chicken Little or Hysterical is relative to what the establishment media are doing with the issue, which is to basically ignore it, or sandwich it in between the Paris Hilton Report, and the Sports.
So, some guy comes along talking about depletion of the world's most important industrial commodity, and it does seem nutty against the backdrop of "all's well."
zeke
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pstarr
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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Heinberg is in academia, specifically the liberal arts/social sciences side which is pretty optimistic. He teaches at a somewhat 'new age' college in Sonoma, CA. He is paid to be 'green,' and optimistic, and he works within the system.
Kunstler has been an angry professional critique of suburbia for at least 15 years (since his 'Geography of Nowhere' around 1994). He writes alone and is not part of an organization. He is paid to be a curmudgeon.
But they are both saying pretty much the same thing--the reigning automobile/suburban/corporate paradigm is dead. And so will we if we can't find an escape from it.
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hippiema1
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Joined: Jul 27, 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| pstarr wrote: | Heinberg is in academia, specifically the liberal arts/social sciences side which is pretty optimistic. He teaches at a somewhat 'new age' college in Sonoma, CA. He is paid to be 'green,' and optimistic, and he works within the system.
Kunstler has been an angry professional critique of suburbia for at least 15 years (since his 'Geography of Nowhere' around 1994). He writes alone and is not part of an organization. He is paid to be a curmudgeon. |
Heinberg is now out of the "system"--not really by his choice but because his college closed its doors. (He's now at the Post Carbon Institute, which I would say is not really in the system, but you may disagree with me.)
I think I remember reading an interview with Kunstler where he acknowledged that he is somewhere between a prophet of doom and an entertainer/comedian.
Heinberg is more concerned about or aware of climate change than Kunstler is. While I agree that fundamentally his writing seems more...hopeful?...than Kunstler's, in some ways he presents an even more difficult picture. |
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zeke
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| hippiema1 wrote: | | Heinberg is more concerned about or aware of climate change than Kunstler is. While I agree that fundamentally his writing seems more...hopeful?...than Kunstler's, in some ways he presents an even more difficult picture. |
Yeah, while he doesn't get you whipped up like JHK does, he doesn't soften it one bit.
the facts he presents are sobering, and anybody reading with 1/10th a brain should be mighty concerned.
zeke
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mos6507
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Joined: Aug 03, 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| Kunstler is too big on the moral idignation. It puts people off. Heinberg is more of the school marm who is trying to educate, not ridicule, even though he too realizes it's probably too little too late. |
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pstarr
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| mos6507 wrote: | | Kunstler is too big on the moral idignation. It puts people off. Heinberg is more of the school marm who is trying to educate, not ridicule, even though he too realizes it's probably too little too late. |
I really appreciate Kunstler's moral indignation. I think he is funny as hell and love his new podcast.
I see this partially as a attitude thing. I've lived both coasts. Kunstler is 'East Coast Wiseguy' while 'Heinberg is California New Age,' always wondering about the New Paradigm. (blah blah blah  )
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Ayoob
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| zeke wrote: |
I can honestly say that the message of both books is very close to being identical. |
Did you know they were both Jews?
So is Matthew Savinar.
Interesting, no? |
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zeke
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| Ayoob wrote: | | zeke wrote: |
I can honestly say that the message of both books is very close to being identical. |
Did you know they were both Jews?
So is Matthew Savinar.
Interesting, no? |
did YOU know they both have TWO (2) ears,
AND
(here's the shocker) TWO (2) FUNCTIONING EYEBALLS??!?!?!?!
Lord have MERCY on us all!!
for all we know, they both probably also have OPPOSABLE THUMBS!!!
Now, I didn't check closely for the presence of horns...what's your data on that?
So, they're Jews. What's the relevance of that in the PO discussion?
zeke
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zeke
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| pstarr wrote: | | I really appreciate Kunstler's moral indignation. I think he is funny as hell and love his new podcast.) |
cool! the Kustler Cast!! just subscribed...
I get a kick that iTunes language scrubber tags some as "explicit."
Lessee, here, if I know my Kunstler, it'll be either "clusterf*ck," or "$hltstorm"
or something similar.
zeke
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Fredrik
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Joined: Nov 05, 2006
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| Ayoob wrote: | | Did you know they were both Jews? |
I think Heinberg wrote somewhere that he grew up in a Protestant Christian family.
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pstarr
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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| zeke wrote: | | pstarr wrote: | | I really appreciate Kunstler's moral indignation. I think he is funny as hell and love his new podcast.) |
cool! the Kustler Cast!! just subscribed...
I get a kick that iTunes language scrubber tags some as "explicit."
Lessee, here, if I know my Kunstler, it'll be either "clusterf*ck," or "$hltstorm"
or something similar.
zeke |
I'm going out for a walk/hike in the Community Forest. I usually listen to one Kunstler and one thewatt.com on the Nano. The former is for fun and the latter for an education on energy issues.
The cast on modern architects had me laughing out loud by myself in the redwoods. It was hilarious.
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catbox
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Posts: 439
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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I've taken bits and pieces from each writer and left a few aside.
Each guy had a part in me ending up here.
They both have something to offer.
At this point of the game, there may not be much more to actually learn from these two....at least by the folks here at PO.com. I am sure it's pretty clear to the gang here at PO what's going on,....but for the rest of the masses, these guys still can be in the job giving that first shove into the 7 stages of PO grief.
catbox
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zeke
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Kunstler vs Heinberg |
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dang...couldn't get thewatt.com subscription to "take."
iTunes sees it, and gives a Subscribe button, but clicking that doesn't result in a successful subscription.
Never mind...googled and got this:
http://thewatt.com/podcast.rss
downloading 'casts right now
zeke
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