Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Thanks zensui for your response. I mentioned karma in the negative sense because that's mostly how it comes up in conversation I've seen, such as this thread. When something bad happens to a person, someone says "that's karma" (as in the example of the soldier). Using it as shorthand for "experience" I think is a bit confusing. I find it confusing anyway, because I don't know if you're talking about karma from a previous life or karma from this life. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Ludi wrote:
Thanks zensui for your response. I mentioned karma in the negative sense because that's mostly how it comes up in conversation I've seen, such as this thread. When something bad happens to a person, someone says "that's karma" (as in the example of the soldier). Using it as shorthand for "experience" I think is a bit confusing. I find it confusing anyway, because I don't know if you're talking about karma from a previous life or karma from this life.
Karma is not all experiences, it's just a type of consequence born from ethical choices, actions, thoughts, and so on. It's a flow. If you don't believe in rebirth, karma only applies in this life. There's no way of saying with certainty that an event in another life is caused only or partially in karma, the examples are just descriptions of how karma is understood. _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
I definitely believe in consequences of our actions. But I think using the word "karma" to mean "consequences of our actions" can be confusing, because some people mean actions in previous lives and some people mean actions in this life.
I just find it confusing, is all.
Do Buddhists believe in accident or chance at all? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Ludi wrote:
I definitely believe in consequences of our actions. But I think using the word "karma" to mean "consequences of our actions" can be confusing, because some people mean actions in previous lives and some people mean actions in this life.
I just find it confusing, is all.
Do Buddhists believe in accident or chance at all?
Karma can be defined as the consequences of our ethical actions, but not all events in a life are karma. Buddhism has an understanding of ignorance of reality as explained by pratitya-samutpada (interdependant arising, see first table), which applications include the Twelve Nidanas.
But specifically of Karma (the above links are about formation processes in reality, focused on mind), I suggest you read (if interested) a brief list of incorrect understandings of Karma
About chance, I usually say to one of my best friends:
Casualidad or Causalidad? (chance/coincidence or causality?)
There are probabilities, but most significant events in our lives are karmic or produce karma (this takes into account other humans' and organisms' intentionalities). _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Ludi wrote:
Thanks, zensui.
You're welcome
allenwrench wrote:
Thanks...med is a big help with calming one's mind. Very stressful living nowadays...and it will only get worse as the crude and NG dires up.
Indeed, and there are ways of practicing meditation without adopting other's religions. Just relax, go sit down a tree, and be aware of your own breath in a way that opens and develops mind in peace, harmony, love, or w-e good quality. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
zensui wrote:
Ludi wrote:
I definitely believe in consequences of our actions. But I think using the word "karma" to mean "consequences of our actions" can be confusing, because some people mean actions in previous lives and some people mean actions in this life.
I just find it confusing, is all.
Do Buddhists believe in accident or chance at all?
Karma can be defined as the consequences of our ethical actions, but not all events in a life are karma. Buddhism has an understanding of ignorance of reality as explained by pratitya-samutpada (interdependant arising, see first table), which applications include the Twelve Nidanas.
But specifically of Karma (the above links are about formation processes in reality, focused on mind), I suggest you read (if interested) a brief list of incorrect understandings of Karma
About chance, I usually say to one of my best friends:
Casualidad or Causalidad? (chance/coincidence or causality?)
There are probabilities, but most significant events in our lives are karmic or produce karma (this takes into account other humans' and organisms' intentionalities).
Just one question (really two):
What is the purpose of all this ?
and
Where does it get you in the end ?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4070 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
AlwaysThere wrote:
Just one question (really two):
What is the purpose of all this ?
and
Where does it get you in the end ?
I suspect the purpose is to arrive at a mental state in which you see the world clearly and calmly most of the time, and know yourself as deeply as possible.
As for where it gets you in the end, you are presupposing a lot in the way you phrase the question.
By saying "where does it get you", you presuppose that we are talking about means and not ends. If peace today is an end in itself, it really doesn't matter where it may "get you", you are already there.
By saying "in the end", you presuppose some sort of linear progression or path. What do you mean by "the end"? The end of what? Life? Immortality? Understanding? The world? Your descendants?
If the practice he describes leads him to a place in which he is happy, peaceful, fulfilled, whatever, on what basis would you say that he is not approaching things correctly? Ultimately, I think we are talking about you telling him what is best for him based upon your experience of what has been best for you.
You can call yourself an agent of a higher power, but that doesn't really work if the only legitimacy for the higher power is based upon leaps of faith that you have chosen to take. If by you taking those leaps of faith it empowers you to tell others how they should live and believe, perhaps it is not surprising that you took such leaps of faith. If I thought that taking such leaps of faith would give me the power and authority to decide how other people should live, believe, and conduct themselves, then I might want to take such leaps of myself. However, I know that any such rationalizations are just a pretext for spiritual coercion, and that is part of the reason I choose not to do those things.
As I have said before, I believe that Christ's message stands on its own, and needs neither supernatural demonstrations, nor fear, nor coercion for its legitimacy. It also does not require every other belief to be wrong in order for it to be right.
Fundamentally, your authority only extends to decisions regarding your own spirituality. Others must make their own decisions. When you tell them what they should or must believe, you are attempting to use coercion to short circuit the necessary process of them making up their own minds. While this may work in some cases, you will find that the faith it instills in people is poorly considered and not very durable in times of difficulty.
I would stick to talking about what you believe and how well it has worked for you. _________________
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
BigTex wrote:
If the practice he describes leads him to a place in which he is happy, peaceful, fulfilled, whatever, on what basis would you say that he is not approaching things correctly? Ultimately, I think we are talking about you telling him what is best for him based upon your experience of what has been best for you.
Big Tex, The Christian position is that unredeemed Mankind does not know what is best for him becasue he is DEAD in tresspasses and sins. He cannot reason, experience, or think his way out of his dilema, why ? Becasue he is DEAD, the Bible is clear on that. I will not waste time debating you as you are just as motivated to prove your point as you say I am about proving mine.
What "works for me" is a silly irrellevant term used by a society so far removed from reality that it is utterly incapable of figuring anything out, please spare me the cheap psychology talk, it's obvious.
I am interested in hearing his answer, can you let him speak ? He does not need you to defend him.
Last edited by AlwaysThere on Thu May 08, 2008 2:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
I thought this thread is about the Buddhist position, not the Christian position..... _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4070 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
AlwaysThere wrote:
Big Tex, The Christian position is that unredeemed Mankind does not know what is best for him becasue he is DEAD in tresspasses and sins. He cannot reason, experience, or think his way out of his dilema, why ? Becasue he is DEAD, the Bible is clear on that. I will not waste time debating you as you are just as motivated to prove your point as you say I am about proving mine.
I would love for you to even make an argument for your point. You are stating the conclusion, but I missed the analysis that leads to the conclusion.
On what basis have you concluded that what you state above is universal truth?
If you say you read it in the Bible, my question will be on what basis did you conclude that the Bible is the repository of universal truth.
If you say that the Bible reflects universal truth because it says it does, then we are at an impasse, because that is circular and could be applied to anything.
Quote:
What "works for me" is a silly irrellevant term used by a society so far removed from reality that it is utterly incapable of figuring anything out, please spare me the cheap psychology talk, it's obvious.
It's not obvious at all. In fact, I'm not sure you are even aware of it. You imagine you have tapped something universal based on its effects on you. How is that anything other than you describing what "works for you." How could you possibly speak to what works for anyone other than you? How would you know?
When you say "society so far removed from reality" what do you mean? What is the "reality" from which society is removed? Who decided that?
Quote:
I am interested in hearing his answer, can you let him speak ? He does not need you to defend him.
I'm not defending zensui. In fact, I have been telling him repeatedly to stop making derogatory comments about non-Buddhist beliefs.
If zensui chooses to speak he will. It won't be because I did or did not "let him."
zensui is not my monkey. He's his own semi-enlightened person. _________________
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil from a Buddhist perspective
Quote:
If you say that the Bible reflects universal truth because it says it does, then we are at an impasse, because that is circular and could be applied to anything.
You will get no argument from me that we are at an impasse and do not agree or believe the same things, actually I have stated that several times in which you have flown off the handle.
Quote:
When you say "society so far removed from reality" what do you mean? What is the "reality" from which society is removed? Who decided that?
I will for the sake of time take this to an illogical extreme on order to prove a point. OK - murder and rape "work for me", and if it does work for me then it should be my right to do so.
Enough said ?
Last edited by AlwaysThere on Thu May 08, 2008 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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