Klein/HHO Gas

quickerest · Coal Joined: May 08, 2008 Posts: 3

I see alot of opinions here but if you wade through all the mess and pull out the facts you will see the basics are agreed on.

The internal combustion engine is a old archaic machine with a low power yield. Then add all the moving parts and there loss and if you look at it in a purely scientific manner the "modern" car should be scrapped altogether. HHO systems that are attached like a "turbo" or other power enhancing accessory use energy and optimize. The power capability is already there just not used. As for the specifics of any added gas or mixture of low octane fuel with a hho mix I would say keep it simple. You are adding hydrogen fuel (in a form) with the use of power from the engine. So the first loss as we all know is the production of the gas. So if done improperly all you’re doing is baring wires and spreading your car onto a piece of plywood for mommy to see. BUT if done correctly you can optimize your cars combustion enough to have a gain of efficiently. Really remember we all know the efficiently gained is still within the extremely archaic system called internal combustion.

Again the energy source for the enhancement of the system is the water. The cost is the energy used from the alternator and if done correctly there is enough energy left over to optimize significantly reducing the use of your initial fuel. This would never be worth while when gas was a 1.00 but at 4+ dollars a gallon it is very worth while because the gain becomes 4 times greater based on the cost difference. Even if you only break even any fuel replacement gained is a cost savings.

You can add hho you can also recirculate used gasses and even change your transmission fluid more often…oh even checking your air pressure on your tires will help. We are talking about optimizing. So how much hho can be used and how can the production of this alternative be made less of a drag on current systems. My opinion is it is worth trying. I figure if I can save even 50 dollars a month and invest it over time with a 12 percent gain I will more than make up for the loss .

I know I know somehow that alternator on my engine will reduce the compounding of my saved money. It will be the newly discovered dynamics of string theory and the relation of the harmonics of the specifically loaded alternator that creates a disturbance in the human psyche sufficient to create a 100 year market crash forcing an average of only 3% gain out of an extremely bearish market… Still I would be ahead.

I see many hack jobs out there too but come on I see many "other" companies lying and hacking up the truth about yearly profits and pollution into the environment regarding there products. You’re always going to have hacks in the mix.

quickerest · Coal Joined: May 08, 2008 Posts: 3

I see alot of opinions here but if you wade through all the mess and pull out the facts you will see the basics are agreed on.

The internal combustion engine is a old archaic machine with a low power yield. Then add all the moving parts and there loss and if you look at it in a purely scientific manner the "modern" car should be scrapped altogether. HHO systems that are attached like a "turbo" or other power enhancing accessory use energy and optimize. The power capability is already there just not used. As for the specifics of any added gas or mixture of low octane fuel with a hho mix I would say keep it simple. You are adding hydrogen fuel (in a form) with the use of power from the engine. So the first loss as we all know is the production of the gas. So if done improperly all you’re doing is baring wires and spreading your car onto a piece of plywood for mommy to see. BUT if done correctly you can optimize your cars combustion enough to have a gain of efficiently. Really remember we all know the efficiently gained is still within the extremely archaic system called internal combustion.

Again the energy source for the enhancement of the system is the water. The cost is the energy used from the alternator and if done correctly there is enough energy left over to optimize significantly reducing the use of your initial fuel. This would never be worth while when gas was a 1.00 but at 4+ dollars a gallon it is very worth while because the gain becomes 4 times greater based on the cost difference. Even if you only break even any fuel replacement gained is a cost savings.

You can add hho you can also recirculate used gases and even change your transmission fluid more often…oh even checking your air pressure on your tires will help. We are talking about optimizing. So how much hho can be used and how can the production of this alternative be made less of a drag on current systems. My opinion is it is worth trying. I figure if I can save even 50 dollars a month and invest it over time with a 12 percent gain I will more than make up for the loss .

I know I know somehow that alternator on my engine will reduce the compounding of my saved money. It will be the newly discovered dynamics of string theory and the relation of the harmonics of the specifically loaded alternator that creates a disturbance in the human psyche sufficient to create a 100 year market crash forcing an average of only 3% gain out of an extremely bearish market… Still I would be ahead.

I see many hack jobs out there too but come on I see many "other" companies lying and hacking up the truth about yearly profits and pollution into the environment regarding there products. You’re always going to have hacks in the mix.

quickerest · Coal Joined: May 08, 2008 Posts: 3

I see alot of opinions here but if you wade through all the mess and pull out the facts you will see the basics are agreed on.

The internal combustion engine is a old archaic machine with a low power yield. Then add all the moving parts and there loss and if you look at it in a purely scientific manner the "modern" car should be scrapped altogether. HHO systems that are attached like a "turbo" or other power enhancing accessory use energy and optimize. The power capability is already there just not used. As for the specifics of any added gas or mixture of low octane fuel with a hho mix I would say keep it simple. You are adding hydrogen fuel (in a form) with the use of power from the engine. So the first loss as we all know is the production of the gas. So if done improperly all you’re doing is baring wires and spreading your car onto a piece of plywood for mommy to see. BUT if done correctly you can optimize your cars combustion enough to have a gain of efficiently. Really remember we all know the efficiently gained is still within the extremely archaic system called internal combustion.

Again the energy source for the enhancement of the system is the water. The cost is the energy used from the alternator and if done correctly there is enough energy left over to optimize significantly reducing the use of your initial fuel. This would never be worth while when gas was a 1.00 but at 4+ dollars a gallon it is very worth while. Even if you only break even any fuel use replacement gained is a cost savings.

You can add hho you can also recirculate used gases and even change your transmission fluid more often…oh even checking your air pressure on your tires will help. We are talking about optimizing. So how much hho can be used and how can the production of this alternative be made less of a drag on current systems. My opinion is it is worth trying. I figure if I can save even 50 dollars a month and invest it over time with a 12 percent gain I will more than make up for the loss .

I know I know somehow that alternator on my engine will reduce the compounding of my saved money. It will be the newly discovered dynamics of string theory and the relation of the harmonics of the specifically loaded alternator that creates a disturbance in the human psyche sufficient to create a 100 year market crash forcing an average of only 3% gain out of an extremely bearish market… Still I would be ahead.

I see many hack jobs out there too but come on I see many "other" companies lying and hacking up the truth about yearly profits and pollution into the environment regarding there products. You’re always going to have hacks in the mix.

gnm · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

kamnet · Coal Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Posts: 3

gnm · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Well alternator size and output will vary a lot depending on the engine. The problem is electrolysis is very inefficient and will cost you somewhere between 8 and 10 times the amount of energy that you will get out of burning the resultant HHO. So unless HHO makes your gasoline burn amazingly efficiently you are just throwing away power.

(And it doesn't because if it did all cars would already have this - I mean seriously do you think Toyota would pass up on a no brainer like this if it could pump another 30% efficiency into their hybrid?)

ITS A FRAUD PEOPLE.

-G
_________________
All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!

RMForbes · Coal Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 11

All I know is I built a unit using seven 4X5 inch stainless plates, installed it on my '93 Lexus ES300 and it works great. It idles smoother, seems to have more power, and my mph went from 18 to around 27. The unit pulls a little over 8 amps when warm. I'm not sure of the volume of gas produced but it looks like alot.

I don't see how you can say it's a fraud without experimenting. Remember that water has unique properties, it expands on changing state from both liquid to solid and liquid to gas, in it's liquid form cannot be compressed, to mention the most obvious. Through my experiments, I have found that water also separates into it's gasous componets with very little energy input, my stereo system uses more energy. No other substance reacts like water, it is truly a freak of nature.

gnm · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

RMForbes · Coal Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 11

Just try it, seven plates with 1/8th inch rubber washers between each plate, positive pole to center plate, negative pole to both outside plates. I used an old 6amp battery charger to test using just tap water and steady supply of gas was produced. When small amount of baking soda was added gas was produced so fast that water seemed to boil but temp of water was unchanged.

RMForbes · Coal Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 11

gnm -- Just a few glaring errors in your argument

Commercial hydrogen generators are producing nearly pure hydrogen --- not HHO gas. They sacrifice volume for purity. They are in no way close to being the same thing.

Air/Fuel mix total volume of the engine stays the same with or without HHO gas added to the intake. What does change is the percentage of reactive elements. When adding HHO gas to the intake it adds an increase of fuel to the system. How much HHO gas in proportion to atomized gasoline would be the proper way calculate gain/loss of energy in the system.

The BTU rating of hydrogen is very low because it burns very poorly at normal sea level pressures. But compress it and watch out, it's very explosive. Do this experiment, hold a flame over the bubbles coming off the HHO generator, it will spit and pop a bit but will not ignite and burn, then fill a normal balloon with HHO and ignite it and see the difference. For your safety do not attempt in a confined area, it's very dangerous.

Being accused of spreading manure in such a sarcastic manner just creates lack of respect for your views, it adds no value to this very important issue. Please try to open your mind just a little. You seem to have a scientific background which is an important asset to this string. We need to have your views heard so that we can explore real value of this technology.

RMForbes · Coal Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 11

gnm -- Just a few glaring errors in your argument

Commercial hydrogen generators are producing nearly pure hydrogen --- not HHO gas. They sacrifice volume for purity. They are in no way close to being the same thing.

Air/Fuel mix total volume of the engine stays the same with or without HHO gas added to the intake. What does change is the percentage of reactive elements. When adding HHO gas to the intake it adds an increase of fuel to the system. How much HHO gas in proportion to atomized gasoline would be the proper way calculate gain/loss of energy in the system.

The BTU rating of hydrogen is very low because it burns very poorly at normal sea level pressures. But compress it and watch out, it's very explosive. Do this experiment, hold a flame over the bubbles coming off the HHO generator, it will spit and pop a bit but will not ignite and burn, then fill a normal balloon with HHO and ignite it and see the difference. For your safety do not attempt in a confined area, it's very dangerous.

Being accused of spreading manure in such a sarcastic manner just creates lack of respect for your views, it adds no value to this very important issue. Please try to open your mind just a little. You seem to have a scientific background which is an important asset to this string. We need to have your views heard so that we can explore real value of this technology.

Gerben · Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

RMForbes · Coal Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 11

I agree, watts is a unit of work, but the potential energy of HHO must not be just the stored power used in the separation process. There has to be something else going on here.

Hydrogen is the most chemically reactive element in nature. Both hydrogen and oxygen not only react with each other but are also reacting with the components of gasoline in the combustion chamber. I am not suggesting that adding HHO creates an over unity system, but instead there are elements at work here that are not being accounted for in your model. I am not sure what is really going on, my college physics and chemistry were over 30 years ago. All I know is my car is running stronger and getting better mileage with the unit installed. This may even be a result of the added moisture carried to the combustion chamber by the HHO gas. I know that WWII era fighters used water injected directly into the combustion chamber to give a boost in performance. I was hoping that someone with a scientific background could tell me why it works so well and why it is not being used more widely.

Commercial Hydrogen generators separate the anode and cathode by several inches, use distilled water with no catalyst. By design that requires a large amount of energy to separate H2 from O2. No they are not more efficient at producing a volume of gas than a simple unit that where the charged plates are less than one half inch apart and are separated by two uncharged plates in an electrolyte bath. If you do not want to do the experiment yourself, there are several videos on U-tube that will illustrate this for you.

DET · Coal Joined: May 11, 2008 Posts: 2

I think the answer to power electrolysis of water for hydrogen production for vehicle power could be a regenerative (motor/generator @ each wheel) hybrid (gas/electric) vehicle with the addition of solar and thermoelectric catalyst/exhaust system to charge the batteries. These systems are available now. Most of the energy provided to an internal combustion engine is lost as heat through the exhaust,which a portion can be recovered with a thermoelectric exhaust system. Solar technology used by the international space station,check this link
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast13nov_1.htm The result of this carefully managed process is 110 kW of power available for all uses," McKissock says. "After life support, battery charging, and other power management uses [take their share], 46 kW of continuous electric power are left over for research work and science experiments. That's enough to run a small village of 50 to 55 houses." This space solar technology is over seven years old and should be able to be scaled down to fit the exterior of vehicles & in combo provide enough power to produce H from H2O. There are fuel cell and other technologies which can also reduce oil dependence, as volume increases prices will fall.

WatchfulEye · Tar Sands Joined: Jun 07, 2007 Posts: 42

It's well known that adding small amounts of hydrogen to the air/fuel mix in a gasoline engine improves combustion slightly.

The benefit is only marginal, as modern gas engines burn the fuel exceptionally well. The problem is getting a suitable source of hydrogen which is practical, convenient and efficient enough.

Several of the major auto makers have settled on catalytic cracking of gas to produce hydrogen as the technology that they are pursuing most seriously. There are several advantages to this approach:
1. Cracking gas to hydrogen is much more efficient that using electrolysis which has been supplied by mechanical energy from the motor.
2. No need for regular filling with pure water/soda/acid, etc. Just need to fill with gas like any other car.
3. Gas is of certified purity and quality. Electrolysers require high purity water, or suffer from build up of precipitates.

None of the manufacturers actually have a commercially ready system. Only time will tell, whether any of them actually launch their technology to market. Probably the most important thing is that it actually makes a demonstrable improvement to fuel consumption.