Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
Anthropology and "human enlightenment" has gottent the Human race exaclty nowhere in the last 600 years except on the precipice of massive and unprecedented Die Off.
The Bible and the Christian church have leading roles in the anthropology and enlightenment to which you are referring.
What you're saying weakens your case much more than it strengthens it. I would be ashamed of the actions of the Christian church over many of the centuries since Christ died. The same exercise of power that led to the martyrdom of many Christians was exactly what the Christian church did when it got into a position of power. _________________
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
If anyone were really interested in spreading Christianity, it seems that they would want to distill it to its essence--humility, kindness, love and rejection of worldiness--and take that message to the masses. When a person embraces these concepts, then help them start applying them in their lives. It seems like you would get a lot more bang for your buck going that route.
I don't think there's much real interest in "spreading Christianity" in this thread. It's already been stated by at least one person (AlwaysThere) that faith is a gift from God. So, there's no point in trying to share it. Either you have it or you don't. You're in the club or you're not. You're a True Christian or you're damned to Hell.
That is actually very accurate Ludi, Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And yes, those who do not believe will suffer an eternal price. But we are to share the message of hope to all, that is why I am here.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12541 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
But we are to share the message of hope to all, that is why I am here.
Do you feel you are doing an effective job, or is the effectiveness of your presentation irrelevant to you? _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
What you're saying weakens your case much more than it strengthens it. I would be ashamed of the actions of the Christian church over many of the centuries since Christ died. The same exercise of power that led to the martyrdom of many Christians was exactly what the Christian church did when it got into a position of power.
You are referring to an institution, (Catholic church) The true Church Jesues spoke of are the Ecclessia Or "Called out ones" and they are not of this world.
Christians have made some amazing discoveries over the years, but in the end they have mostly been exploited these days for personal gain and profit.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
Is that how you measure love, tolerance, kindness, patience, or empathy, By your Sensory input ?
If I don't use my sensory input, what would I use to perceive reality?
Quote:
Are you the ultimate judge on this matter ?
I am the ultimate judge regarding what I believe. It would be idolatry to allow anyone else to be the judge of what I believe.
Quote:
Is your sensory input unique to yourself or is it sharable and objective to all ? I'm confused.
My sensory input is unique to me. The things I see, hear, smell, touch, etc. are not being beamed to the central office for review.
I can only share it by telling others what I am perceiving. It is not objective to me or to anyone else. I experience reality in a subjective manner and so do you and everyone else.
It is the subjectivity of reality that makes people fight with one another. If everyone saw one objective reality, there would be far fewer things about which to disagree.
The real problem is people who imagine they are perceiving an objective reality. When two groups with this orientation come into contact with one another, you can assume there will be fighting. _________________
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
But we are to share the message of hope to all, that is why I am here.
Do you feel you are doing an effective job, or is the effectiveness of your presentation irrelevant to you?
I don't know - I can only hope and pray that the truth penetrates someones hearts. I am not overly preoccuppied with visible results. Maybe someone will read this and believe, God's truth does not come back void. Nobody does anything perfectly Ludi, especally Christians, is it your contention that if it is not done to your definition of perfection that it is irrellevant ? That guy Clueless, yeah the guy seems to be kind of a jerk, but he has a burden to get the truth out there, you never know someone may see that and respond, we will not know until we die.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
God is not Tolerant...He is patient but not Tolerant.
AlwaysThere, what would you think if I told you that it is YOU who thinks that he is God. Everything you say about the nature of God is basically feelings and emotions that rise up within you and which you express.
The only expression of God that you have is through your own personality.
In what way do you differ from God?
You are immortal.
You have the answers to every question.
You have the ability to step outside of reason and rationality when they don't suit your ends.
You judge others and determine who is doing things right and who is doing things wrong.
Your interpretation of scripture appears to be infallible.
What if the last line above read:
"AlwaysThere is not Tolerant....He is patient, but not Tolerant."
Do you see how one who followed you would be engaging in a form of idolatry?
Even if you said they weren't following you, but instead following God, what is the difference if everything the person knows about God they heard from you? Doesn't that make you the authority on which the legitimacy of the beliefs is based for that person? _________________
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
My sensory input is unique to me. The things I see, hear, smell, touch, etc. are not being beamed to the central office for review.
I can only share it by telling others what I am perceiving. It is not objective to me or to anyone else. I experience reality in a subjective manner and so do you and everyone else.
It is the subjectivity of reality that makes people fight with one another. If everyone saw one objective reality, there would be far fewer things about which to disagree.
The real problem is people who imagine they are perceiving an objective reality. When two groups with this orientation come into contact with one another, you can assume there will be fighting.
Just one thing you may want to consider, things may not always be as they seem to be.
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
I'll close this subject with that . I has been very nice talking to you all, I hope and Pray for God to reveal himself to you (to those who do not know him).
Last edited by AlwaysThere on Thu May 08, 2008 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I don't know - I can only hope and pray that the truth penetrates someones hearts.
Wouldn't it be better for you to pray that what you are saying and believing actually is the truth?
I've been a Christian all my life and much of what you are saying sounds quite foreign to me.
The ability to cite a scripture to support a position is meaningless. I can cite scripture to support everything I say as well. That's just legalism. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I'll close this subject with that . I has been very nice talking to you all, I hope and Pray for God to reveal himself to you (to those who do not know him).
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
I've been a Christian all my life and much of what you are saying sounds quite foreign to me.
The ability to cite a scripture to support a position is meaningless. I can cite scripture to support everything I say as well. That's just legalism.
I may be mistaken, but I thought (or assumed) Christians accept the Bible as the source of absolute truth. It appears you and I differ on that.
I do not cite a scripture to support my position, I create my position based on the Scripture. Big Tex I do not know if you are a Christian or not, you may be , I do not know. I hope you are, but we differ on quite key points of doctrine, mainly the infallibility of the Word of God. I am not going to argue, it is not my wish to do so I am going to , as I said earlier, check out or move to another subject.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I thought (or assumed) Christians accept the Bible as the source of absolute truth. It appears you and I differ on that.
I do not cite a scripture to support my position, I create my position based on the Scripture. Big Tex I do not know if you are a Christian or not, you may be , I do not know. I hope you are, but we differ on quite key points of doctrine, mainly the infallibility of the Word of God. I am not going to argue, it is not my wish to do so I am going to , as I said earlier, check out or move to another subject.
Good call.
As for the Bible being the source of absolute truth, it cannot be. There are too many internal inconsistencies for it to be taken literally.
Put the order of the events in the four gospels side by side and you will see that the timeline of events differs. You will also see events recorded at the crucifixion that were not mentioned in other places. If, for example, there was a huge earthquake that ejected the bodies of the prophets from their graves Poltergeist-style, I would think that detail would have been in all four gospels, but it's only in one.
Lots of wisdom in there, but a literal reading only leads to confusion. That's my opinion.
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Why do present-day Protestants bow to the authority of 4th century Catholic bishops about what is and isn't "heresy"? They don't recognize the authority of present-day bishops or the Pope.
Maybe we need to refight the battle against the gnostic heresies in this thread. The Gospel According to Thomas and other early so called 'writings' are heretical. Heresy means it deviates from standard teachings. Other than perhaps the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses (which Jude quotes as true) and some missing letters of John and Paul I can see no place where Scripture allows for an extended or altered canon. The Bible as Protestants use it today is sufficient for godly and victorious living in Christ. It is very important that we not allow every flight of fancy to enter into what Christians consider authoritative.
Gandalf, why is a "battle against the gnostic heresies" necessary at all?
What would be wrong with saying that "I do not recognize the gnostic gospels as being divinely inspired" and just leave it at that?
If someone asks you for your reasoning in reaching that conclusion, then you could share it with them.
It just seems as if there is this constant quest to find some nit to pick or some issue to slice a little more finely, when that same time and energy could be spent studying the words of Jesus and attempting to deepen our understanding of them.
In other words, if I know I disagree with someone on some points and agree with them on others, why wouldn't I want to focus on the areas in which we agree for the purpose of deepening both of our levels of understanding of these things, rather than arguing about the things we disagree about, which is ultimately unproductive and often counter-productive.
We are called to defend the faith and watch out for those who are young in the faith. We have to confront false teachers for that reason. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Good call.
As for the Bible being the source of absolute truth, it cannot be. There are too many internal inconsistencies for it to be taken literally.
Put the order of the events in the four gospels side by side and you will see that the timeline of events differs. You will also see events recorded at the crucifixion that were not mentioned in other places. If, for example, there was a huge earthquake that ejected the bodies of the prophets from their graves Poltergeist-style, I would think that detail would have been in all four gospels, but it's only in one.
Lots of wisdom in there, but a literal reading only leads to confusion. That's my opinion.
Take it easy my friend.
I cannot let this go unaddressed, sorry. The Gospels are eyewitness accounts. Ask twenty different people what they saw and you will get twenty slightly different accounts. When you put them all together you have a cohesive account of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Bible is a spiritual book - and Spritually dead people , such as yourself cannot comprehend or accept it. I leave you with this passage, even a dead man can understand it.
1Co 2:9-16 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
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