Do you want oil production to peak, sometime in the reasonably near future?
Yes I do
53%
[ 92 ]
No I don't
46%
[ 79 ]
Total Votes : 171
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Jenab6 Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 393 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
Ludi wrote:
Slaves were owned by the very wealthy, and used to maintain the very wealthy in the style to which they were accustomed. Slaves were not used by the average farmer, even in the South.
That's right. And slavery was a racially more complicated subject that the politically correct version that is taught to teens in high school. Most antebellum White farmers, as you said, did not own slaves. Blacks were among the owners as well as among the slaves. The largest slave-owner in South Carolina, for a while, was a Negro. Some Injuns also owned slaves. Not all of the slaves were Blacks - in fact, there were about as many White slaves as Black slaves between the founding of Jamestown and the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Ludi wrote:
Just to add, though I do not see slavery as an economic necessity, neither do I expect post-peak-oil to be easy. The world needn't be "harsh, repressive, and Darwinian." It's more likely to be so the more people see such a future as acceptable and inevitable. Just sayin'. But I'm well-known here as a hopelessly naive dreamer and optimist.
The world in the 22nd century is likely to be fairly Darwinian. But the middle half of the 21st century will probably be very, very Darwinian. That's when the dieoff will be going at the briskest clip, the first derivative of the global population as negative as it will ever be. People will want strong leadership and will rally around anyone who seems to be a strong leader, regardless of his motives and morals. There will be several decades in which ham-fisted, loudmouthed bullies will reign supreme, though outside their window of opportunity such as they have been, and will be, generally despised.
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 432 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
I don't want it to occur anytime soon, and it's obvious why.
From my perspective - it shouldn't peak until I'm dead.
I want to see technoutopian dream of endless growth.
But it's a hopeless wish. _________________ Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by
this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten
future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is
ours, chew and eat our fill.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
usncom wrote:
Have any of you truly considered the ramifications of a society reverting back to the horse and buggy on our freedoms? Civil rights for minorities and women were largely made possible by and during the indusrial age.
....
I think there is much truth to your statement.
I have tried to argue (although not very eloquently) that what we call economic liberalism (free public education, social welfare programs for the poor, etc...) was ONLY made possible by crude oil.
example
Q: Why do we have a government funded food stamp system where we literally give away "free" food to the poor?
A: Fossil fuel based agriculture has made food so ridiculously cheap that tax payers can afford to give away free food.
There are some people who want PO to happen just so we can all watch those idiotic soccer moms give up their SUV's but it is an unfortunate truth that PO is not some type of broad sword that cuts across evenly. PO will kill off the desperately poor first and the soccer moms in their SUV's will be the last ones to feel the pain.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
Jenab6 wrote:
That's right. And slavery was a racially more complicated subject that the politically correct version that is taught to teens in high school. Most antebellum White farmers, as you said, did not own slaves. Blacks were among the owners as well as among the slaves. The largest slave-owner in South Carolina, for a while, was a Negro. Some Injuns also owned slaves. Not all of the slaves were Blacks - in fact, there were about as many White slaves as Black slaves between the founding of Jamestown and the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
I'm trying to point out the horrific nature of the institution and show that even though people KNEW this was a horrific crime against humanity it was seen as a lesser of two evils. Perhaps a quote from the General of the Confederate Army will set this straight:
Quote:
There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially.
I don't think Robert Lee was being politically correct when he wrote this. As horrific a slavery was it was viewed as necessary.
Flash forward to today. As horrific as fossil fuels are its viewed as well as a necessary evil. In fact we are fighting a war over in the middle east over this liquid gold.
If and when TSHF and we lose our liquid oil slaves you can bet that human slaves will take thier place again.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
cube wrote:
There are some people who want PO to happen just so we can all watch those idiotic soccer moms give up their SUV's but it is an unfortunate truth that PO is not some type of broad sword that cuts across evenly. PO will kill off the desperately poor first and the soccer moms in their SUV's will be the last ones to feel the pain.
Great observation. I've noticed that it seems to be the political extremes that are sitting by eating popcorn and cheering for the collapse of our world as we know it. Whether its the extreme left who want to see the collapse of an overly greedy capitalistic society that tramples on the poor and disenfranchised or the extreme right who are cheering for the collapse of an overly powerful centralized government which tramples upon individual liberties.
What's ironic is that a hard collapse will only bring us a heavily fuedalistic and patriarchal economic system which will make 100 years ago look like the Enlightenment and an end to any type of civilized governement rule which was the only legal entity which stood by to protect our individual liberties.
My hope is it will be a soft collapse from fossil fuel if there's a collapse at all and we don't have to endure some "World Made By Hand" dystopian future.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 9354 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
usncom wrote:
100 years ago
100 years ago (1908) was pretty darn great in some ways. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 9354 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
usncom wrote:
Perhaps a quote from the General of the Confederate Army
Who was fighting for the interests of the wealthy.
Once again, slavery was not a necessity, except to maintain the very wealthy in their state of extreme luxury. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
Looks like the yesses have taken the lead again. S'pose I couldn't have expected the no's to be on top for long. _________________ Que Sera, Sera,
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que Sera, Sera
What will be, will be.
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?
Ludi wrote:
...
100 years ago (1908) was pretty darn great in some ways.
compared to 1808, yes 1908 was a wonderful period.
I think a lot of people make the bad habit of looking at the past through the lens of 21 st century "pampered" existence. Even by 1908 there were great technological advancements like steam ships which made things like tea and spices within the financial reach of common low paying grunt workers. Way back in Marco Polo's time you had to be part of royalty to even afford such an extravagant luxury.
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