How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Jack wrote:
First of all...everyone aspires to power. Oh, people love to deny it. They claim there merely wish to be left alone, to pursue their muse in harmonious humility. It's all utter nonsense. We all lust after raw power. The ability to force our will upon others. Don't think so? Look up the Stanford prison experiment. Here's a LINK
Second - the ruling class pays better than the poor. Unless, of course, one uses the poor, fleeces them, picks their pockets en masse.
I suspect that those who criticize Bush would sell their soul to have his money and contacts. And be glad of the opportunity.
Bah, humbug. I majored in this crap. I know it is true of the vast majority of people, but there are people in each group who resist. It isn't a big number. Look at the Milgram experiment, for example.
Even if only 20% resist the urge to power, domination, cruelty, I find it encouraging. I've been down some pretty unpleasant roads, myself. I can say, with a fair amount of conviction, I really don't give a crap about power.
You see, you hit the nail on the head when you said some would "sell their soul". If that's the price of power, I'll pass.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
joeltrout wrote:
charliebrownout wrote:
I'm not sure why you're so eager to go to bat for the ruling class? Secretly aspire to power? Vicarious kicks?
Most likely they are not secretly posting here on peakoil.com so someone has to give them a voice.
I work in the oil industry, my immediate family have worked in the oil industry for 30 years, and I have extended family that has worked in the oil industry for over 50 years. All that to say, I have been defending a misunderstood industry since I was in highschool.
It bugs me when people attack industries or job positions in which 99% of people have no real understanding of it. Very few people see the reports President Bush sees everyday. Very few people have ever run a fortune 500 company worth over $300 BILLION.
Most people cant even balance their checkbook, stay married to their spouse, or keep their children from drugs, alcohol, etc... I think most people should consider looking at themselves before they are so eager to point out all the flaws of these leaders that we the people elect.
joeltrout
I guess I'm just a big meanie...picking on minorities and such....
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
dbruning wrote:
Hey, who let you in with a camera during our family picknick?!
Wouldn't you like to know?
P.S.
Just kidding (kind of anyway) w/ that pic...I don't buy the conspiracy stuff. I think it is just a big, nerdy summer camp for old rich farts where they sit around, get drunk, and play elaborate games of D&D and whiz on redwoods before sawing them down just for shits and giggles w/o a permit
Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1021 Location: Land of the Tongva tribe
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
charliebrownout wrote:
I think it is just a big, nerdy summer camp for old rich farts where they sit around, get drunk, and play elaborate games of D&D and whiz on redwoods before sawing them down just for shits and giggles w/o a permit
You really have it out for people that have money. Why?
joeltrout _________________ ENERGY is the basis of our industrial civilization and sustains our standard of living. It is the foundation stone of our national wealth. A nation starved of energy.....will be a nation of starving people.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
joeltrout wrote:
charliebrownout wrote:
I think it is just a big, nerdy summer camp for old rich farts where they sit around, get drunk, and play elaborate games of D&D and whiz on redwoods before sawing them down just for shits and giggles w/o a permit
You really have it out for people that have money. Why?
No, I don't. Laughing at them is a far cry from suggesting a lynch mob of some sort. For what it is worth, I find people (in general)infinitely amusing.
The topic--for now--is the section of the population considered to be part of the "elite". Change the subject and I'd be happy to take the mickey out of some other group.
Besides, anyone who has heard of the Bohemian Club has probably gotten at least a small case of the giggles. I mean, unless you're the sort that believes in some vast occult conspiracy.
Lighten up, it's just a joke. Pointing out a few absurdities and suggesting that ANYONE (rich or poor) advocating death for others but not themselves should "go first" is a far cry from being "out to get" people.
Sanity, live and let live...that's all I'm on about.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3251 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
joeltrout wrote:
Very few people see the reports President Bush sees everyday.
Just being able to see a report doesn't mean he has a clue what it means-short or long term-or, that he can even read big words.
joeltrout wrote:
I think most people should consider looking at themselves before they are so eager to point out all the flaws of these leaders that we the people elect.
When the laws those leaders put into place have an affect on my life, I have no problem with pointing out their flaws. _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon May 12, 2008 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 220 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
I have a bit of a different take on the elites from you guys. As I recall Marshall McLuhan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan) had the idea that each society/culture will elevate a few people as heroes to worship. I believe that there are other experiments where it has been shown that even Amish children will ostracize one of their own to have some one to pick on.
I tend to think that if we took one million average people, mixed them up in a pot, then let them be for couple of generations we would have a stratum of elites and out casts. It's something we do as humans.
Take Britney Spears, or worse (if possible) Paris Hilton. What makes them superstars except us? We want to hear about them and their outrageous behavior, if we didn't buy the rag mags then they would be without a job.
W as well. We made him. Recently Scientific American did a short piece on some research on facial features and electability. The research was able to 100% predict who would win an election based upon facial features alone. They took an average face (amalgamation of many, overlaid) then laid in either a little of the winner, or a little of the loser. Then told people to pick who they would vote for. Did this for several prominent elections here and abroad: Britain, Australia. 100% accuracy. So, based upon that, we have reduced the Presidency to a High School beauty contest.
The common thread through all of this is that it is "We the people" who make the elites. _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Newfie wrote:
I have a bit of a different take on the elites from you guys. As I recall Marshall McLuhan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan) had the idea that each society/culture will elevate a few people as heroes to worship. I believe that there are other experiments where it has been shown that even Amish children will ostracize one of their own to have some one to pick on.
I tend to think that if we took one million average people, mixed them up in a pot, then let them be for couple of generations we would have a stratum of elites and out casts. It's something we do as humans.
Take Britney Spears, or worse (if possible) Paris Hilton. What makes them superstars except us? We want to hear about them and their outrageous behavior, if we didn't buy the rag mags then they would be without a job.
W as well. We made him. Recently Scientific American did a short piece on some research on facial features and electability. The research was able to 100% predict who would win an election based upon facial features alone. They took an average face (amalgamation of many, overlaid) then laid in either a little of the winner, or a little of the loser. Then told people to pick who they would vote for. Did this for several prominent elections here and abroad: Britain, Australia. 100% accuracy. So, based upon that, we have reduced the Presidency to a High School beauty contest.
The common thread through all of this is that it is "We the people" who make the elites.
I agree, but I think we're stupid for doing so. The term "tyranny of the majority" comes to mind. Big government, huge corporations, it isn't as though we weren't WARNED they were a bad idea from the beginning.
I understand that it happens. I have no respect for the fact that it happens or the people that endorse it as good/correct/preferable.
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 1625 Location: Australia
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Quote:
Most likely they are not secretly posting here on peakoil.com so someone has to give them a voice.
I work in the oil industry, my immediate family have worked in the oil industry for 30 years, and I have extended family that has worked in the oil industry for over 50 years. All that to say, I have been defending a misunderstood industry since I was in highschool.
It bugs me when people attack industries or job positions in which 99% of people have no real understanding of it. Very few people see the reports President Bush sees everyday. Very few people have ever run a fortune 500 company worth over $300 BILLION.
Most people cant even balance their checkbook, stay married to their spouse, or keep their children from drugs, alcohol, etc... I think most people should consider looking at themselves before they are so eager to point out all the flaws of these leaders that we the people elect.
To be elected you just need to make sure the electronic voting machines tip the scales into your favor. ( Diebold leak )
Secondly, you need to surround yourself with advisors who tell you what to say and to think. (If unsure, insist you bring them along to let's say 911 commission hearings. Otherwise just refuse.)
Finally,
Quote:
Most people cant even balance their checkbook, stay married to their spouse, or keep their children from drugs, alcohol
Neither can GWB, this ex-junkie alcoholic can't control his daughters. And balance checkbook... Have you seen the budget deficit?
I am not saying GWB is dumber then most people. I just think he is pretty average joe sixpack who prefers to drink whiskey and work as little as possible and who prefers watching big brother over following important news. I would be t he watches a lot of fox and cannot believe there is a single person who thinks badly of him. Except for those darn A-rabs of course who hate his freedoms. _________________ Lets take a ride, and run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
You cant hide, run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
- Pet Shop Boys
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 220 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Micki wrote:
I am not saying GWB is dumber then most people. I just think he is pretty average joe sixpack who prefers to drink whiskey and work as little as possible and who prefers watching big brother over following important news. I would be t he watches a lot of fox and cannot believe there is a single person who thinks badly of him. Except for those darn A-rabs of course who hate his freedoms.
Exactly, which is why we elected him. Not because he was the best but because he was more like us, he felt familiar.
BTW I think the same was true of Clinton. And Kennedy and Regan.
We elect the elite that most resembles us, or, who is best at deceiving us that he is most like us.
So, I wonder who I'll vote for? McCain or Obama? How does this work for THAT? McCain with an asymetrical face (a real no-no) or tan Obama? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............ _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Newfie wrote:
Micki wrote:
I am not saying GWB is dumber then most people. I just think he is pretty average joe sixpack who prefers to drink whiskey and work as little as possible and who prefers watching big brother over following important news. I would be t he watches a lot of fox and cannot believe there is a single person who thinks badly of him. Except for those darn A-rabs of course who hate his freedoms.
Exactly, which is why we elected him. Not because he was the best but because he was more like us, he felt familiar.
BTW I think the same was true of Clinton. And Kennedy and Regan.
We elect the elite that most resembles us, or, who is best at deceiving us that he is most like us.
So, I wonder who I'll vote for? McCain or Obama? How does this work for THAT? McCain with an asymetrical face (a real no-no) or tan Obama? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............
True, taking pot-shots at GWB is almost unfair considering he is little more than a figurehead in some ways. Of course, I'm one of those weirdos who genuinely believe other people are pulling the strings. GWB and most visible political leaders are just part of the circus act that keep us distracted.
A very close relative (who always worked with the government/goverment contracts) always contended we live in an oligarchy with the illusion of democracy.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Newfie wrote:
I tend to think that if we took one million average people, mixed them up in a pot, then let them be for couple of generations we would have a stratum of elites and out casts. It's something we do as humans.
No, it's something we do as civilizations.
"Humans are best adapted to small, egalitarian bands, in the same way that wolves are adapted to packs or bees to hives. Humans flourish in such a social structure, providing us not only with our material needs, but also our universal psychological needs of belonging to such a group, of personal freedom, and of acceptance for ourselves as individuals. Hierarchical society is a social structure we left behind when we became human. It may provide for our material needs, but it fails utterly to provide for any of our psychological needs. So, we invent small, band-like societies–social circles, clubs and the like–to compensate for all the failings of hierarchy. In short, egalitarianism is an essential requirement for healthy human life; hierarchy is an utter rejection of everything that makes us human."
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
Ludi wrote:
Newfie wrote:
I tend to think that if we took one million average people, mixed them up in a pot, then let them be for couple of generations we would have a stratum of elites and out casts. It's something we do as humans.
No, it's something we do as civilizations.
"Humans are best adapted to small, egalitarian bands, in the same way that wolves are adapted to packs or bees to hives. Humans flourish in such a social structure, providing us not only with our material needs, but also our universal psychological needs of belonging to such a group, of personal freedom, and of acceptance for ourselves as individuals. Hierarchical society is a social structure we left behind when we became human. It may provide for our material needs, but it fails utterly to provide for any of our psychological needs. So, we invent small, band-like societies–social circles, clubs and the like–to compensate for all the failings of hierarchy. In short, egalitarianism is an essential requirement for healthy human life; hierarchy is an utter rejection of everything that makes us human."
There's nothing civilized about civilization. I have to say, regarding peak oil, some of the thoughts of going back to humanities "roots" sound very romantic (at least on the surface). I don't think it would ever come to that, but I can understand the desire to fantasize about it. Who likes living in a state of anomie? Really is it a wonder so many people are "depressed" or "anxious" and medicated for it?
edited to add: Great article, Ludi. Thanks for sharing.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: After You, Sir....
I never personally advocate "going back" to some previous way of life.
Living in a way to which we are adapted is not "going back" to anything.
Millions of people are currently living in egalitarian bands. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
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