WhiteStar is the codename of a planned electric car from Tesla Motors. It is expected to be the second vehicle produced by the company, after its Tesla Roadster electric sportscar. Release is anticipated for the 2010 model year[1].
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Initial pricing is estimated at $50,000 for the standard model or $65,000 for a premium model with greater performance and range.
Sounds like smoke to me. OK, you gonna make a high end car, or a mid-priced sedan-Hell we'll make BOTH.
Please.
What is going on is a widespread wanking by software development jerk-offs thinking that vehicles are just like writing code for doomIII.
You guys like predictions: no whitestar will ever roll.
They want to build a 'real' factory, They got no idea what be getting into, $100mil hard money for tooling and factory...
Operating capitol that is staggering...
Heres the bike that every greenie tosser has been blathering about for TEN years. These guys realy stepped on their collective dicks.
Hey, we're going to save the world! Oh, maby not.
What a waste. Would have been better off strapping a 6horse briggs&stratton to a BMX bike.
How do you build something so shitty, that every greenie is wetting himself waiting for it, and then sell one in ten of your production.
525lbs, with a 120lb battery, crap, an eight year old kid could tell you thats not going to work.
This just shows that EV's ain't stupid, it's people who are stupid.
Some other large scooter or motorcycle company will buy them out and then start a large scale production and bring down the price by more then half and you will see them in large numbers on the road in a few years if not sooner.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Vegas wrote:
...What is going on is a widespread wanking by software development jerk-offs thinking that vehicles are just like writing code for doomIII.
If these tech geeks like, Elon Musk, who made their fortune off the dot-com boom want to lose their money that badly that's fine with me.
I respect the Tesla company only because it used private money and did NOT try to strong arm the tax payers.
Vegas wrote:
...You guys like predictions: no whitestar will ever roll.
I guess it's my turn to make a prediction.
Peak Oil == peak electric cars.
EV cars exist only because some people have too much money they don't know what to do with it. PO will solve that problem.
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Some other large scooter or motorcycle company will buy them out and then start a large scale production and bring down the price by more then half and you will see them in large numbers on the road in a few years if not sooner.
They DID large scale prodution, 2000 units. No one is going to buy that hunk of crap. The company is sitting on 1700 bikes. Ten million in inventory. When they released it they sold 60. It has taken two years to sell 170. Vectrix is a bleeding pig in a ditch.
The china scooters cost $1500-3000, some have better range, the US isn't buying them, but the chinese sure are. I've ridden a $2500 scooter, 60v40ah pack, ~200lbs. Nice bike, 3.5kw peak power, 40mph.
I don't remember the brand, long duck dong manufacturing. I hate scooters, but there you go. It is being done, just not here.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Have a look at this beauties small and cheap the future of America's roads.
Grean Vehicles
This is why EV cars will NEVER be economically viable
geo metro xfi specs:
year from 1989 through 1994
cost $6,999 Original Retail Price
mpg 58
images:
pic 1 pic 2
When it comes down to the bottom line.
Because that's what post peak oil is all about right?
Cutting back on spending and buying only what you can afford.
EV cars will never never never be able to beat that price, even if gasoline was $10 / gallon.
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
That sign rocks.
It sure seems that EV's don't scale well. The bikes that china is making WORK. The people there are using them. Done deal. Go over 40mph, EV is at a huge disadvantage, scooters, it don't matter, freeway+scoot=death.
17 mill in sales in china. I heard that number a couple months ago, and did'nt beleave it. Thats bigger than the US bicycle+motorcycle market.
Probly more than half are 'toys', but the other half are two-wheel trucks being used by people.The two wheel EV market in the US is around 100,000, just for scale.
Of cours it is important to remember general scale, toyota builds 9million cars a year, 40,000 cars-a-farking-day.
Just toyota....
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
mos6507 wrote:
cube wrote:
There's a 3rd way. improved aerodynamics
Even with aerodynamics you can't get 300 miles without a prohibitively expensive battery pack.
300 miles at 55mph should be doable with a large lead acid pack and the right donor vehicle.
cube wrote:
This is why EV cars will NEVER be economically viable
geo metro xfi specs:
year from 1989 through 1994
cost $6,999 Original Retail Price
mpg 58
images:
pic 1 pic 2
When it comes down to the bottom line.
Because that's what post peak oil is all about right?
Cutting back on spending and buying only what you can afford.
EV cars will never never never be able to beat that price, even if gasoline was $10 / gallon.
At $4/gallon the XFI costs 6.6cents per mile in fuel plus service. Battery costs for the same vehicle with an electric drivetrain are the same or less depending on if the driver is o.k. with reduced range. For most, the service costs are more than the electricity costs plus reduced service costs. The only people who wouldn't see this benefit are those that do their own work, but even then those people would probably have something like a small diesel running off of veggie oil.
In any event, going from $2/gallon to $4/gallon has resulted in lead acid conversions being slightly less than similar conventional autos, and I don't see why this wouldn't continue as gas prices increase. At $10/gallon, the margins will be wider. _________________
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
yesplease wrote:
At $4/gallon the XFI costs 6.6cents per mile in fuel plus service. Battery costs for the same vehicle with an electric drivetrain are the same or less depending on if the driver is o.k. with reduced range.
I just had a bizarre urge to emphasize that last part.
BTW battery costs come out to 12cents/mile taking into account cycle durability. I've done my own calcs
It would be cheaper to pay the $4/gallon gasoline
yesplease wrote:
In any event, going from $2/gallon to $4/gallon has resulted in lead acid conversions being slightly less than similar conventional autos,
Is this purely your opinion or do you have any sources to back up this claim?
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
yesplease wrote:
300 miles at 55mph should be doable with a large lead acid pack and the right donor vehicle.
No way. You are talking 1-2 ton batt. That is getting realy weird.
half ton of lead gets ya 100mi range, if you are running a good motor, series wound is going to be less. It is hard building with lead, I done it for a long time, frustrating. There is nothing wrong with a short range vehicle, when the other choice is walking.
I hate cars, so that figures into it too. The car 'culture' disintigrating does'nt seem that tragic. America will have to adapt, and go third world transportation. Be good for us, toughen up a little;)
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
cube wrote:
yesplease wrote:
At $4/gallon the XFI costs 6.6cents per mile in fuel plus service. Battery costs for the same vehicle with an electric drivetrain are the same or less depending on if the driver is o.k. with reduced range.
I just had a bizarre urge to emphasize that last part.
BTW battery costs come out to 12cents/mile taking into account cycle durability. I've done my own calcs
A metro (2200lb EV/same aero) requires roughly 7kW at the batteries over the old EPA highway cycle (what the XFI was tested with) for 60 miles of highway range assuming a dozen t-105s. Trojan t-105s cost ~$140/battery, probably less if we're thrifty, or more if we like paying out the nose. They'll last 500 cycles at 50% dod, longer if we don't mind capacity degradation. Since city cycle requires far less average power the EPA equivalent combined range would be ~100 miles combined. Half of that is 50 miles, for ~25k miles over the life of the battery assuming we ditch them as the degrade significantly. Pack costs would be ~$1680 every ~25k miles or ~6.6cents/mile. I'm interested in seeing what assumptions you used.
cube wrote:
Is this purely your opinion or do you have any sources to back up this claim?
It's based on the calcs I outlined above, and can provide more info if ya like. When gas was at ~$2-3/gallon, there wasn't as wide a divide, but now that gas is ~$4/gallon, EVs are slightly cheaper in the case of the geo glider, and as gas gets more expensive I don't see how this gap wouldn't widen. Lead prices have increased with crude, but lead acid battery prices haven't to the same extent since lead is only a fraction of the total cost, which means that the higher gasoline goes, the more the gap between a lead acid powered XFI and a gas one would increase AFAIK. Naturally, if EVs do become popular deep cycle lead would increase due to demand but that hasn't happened yet AFAIK.
Then there's buying used batteries, which often times, provided the buyer intelligently uses a load tester, can significantly reduce battery costs. I can't buy used gasoline, but I can buy used batteries for much less than retail on a energy per cost basis.
Vegas wrote:
No way. You are talking 1-2 ton batt. That is getting realy weird.
Pretty much. Older/lighter significantly areomodded pickup w/ a huge pack at 55mph. It'd actually be easier with a smaller vehicle towing an electrically braked trailer since more batteries could be added w/o going over the gvwr and aero would be easier to deal w/, but then it wouldn't be one vehicle anymore.
Not really practical since compact car rentals are still cheap, but a decent demonstration IMO because it goes to show just how much a low drag coefficient can help out w/ range. _________________
Professor Membrane wrote:
Not now son! I'm making...TOAST!
Last edited by yesplease on Thu May 15, 2008 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Vegas wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Some other large scooter or motorcycle company will buy them out and then start a large scale production and bring down the price by more then half and you will see them in large numbers on the road in a few years if not sooner.
They DID large scale prodution, 2000 units. No one is going to buy that hunk of crap. The company is sitting on 1700 bikes. Ten million in inventory. When they released it they sold 60. It has taken two years to sell 170. Vectrix is a bleeding pig in a ditch.
The china scooters cost $1500-3000, some have better range, the US isn't buying them, but the chinese sure are. I've ridden a $2500 scooter, 60v40ah pack, ~200lbs. Nice bike, 3.5kw peak power, 40mph.
I don't remember the brand, long duck dong manufacturing. I hate scooters, but there you go. It is being done, just not here.
An so I can walk into a honda dealer and find one of these chinese electric scooters?
$12,000 for a any bike let alone a ES is noting going to sell big numbers altought there are a few sport bikes in that price range that sale ok.
Please show me where I can find a ES with the same specs and for around $2000 ? and it has to be a walkin place where I can test drive.
2000 units of this ES is'nt crap and anyone with some basic understanding of mass production would know that if this was produced in the 100,000 unit range it would be selling big time.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
cube wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Have a look at this beauties small and cheap the future of America's roads.
Grean Vehicles
This is why EV cars will NEVER be economically viable
geo metro xfi specs:
year from 1989 through 1994
cost $6,999 Original Retail Price
mpg 58
images:
pic 1 pic 2
When it comes down to the bottom line.
Because that's what post peak oil is all about right?
Cutting back on spending and buying only what you can afford.
EV cars will never never never be able to beat that price, even if gasoline was $10 / gallon.
WTF would you even compare the metro to and small EV ?
First off people that want and ev will spend 10 to 20 thousand for one that gets them from point A to point B all the other dumbasses that have a 5000 pound suv to move 200 pounds of person will either change or take public transportation.
If they are already getting rid of their BIG trucks and SUV's now at $4 a gallon if at $10 a gallon they havent already changed then they will be Fark they might be Fark even at $6.
I know plenty of people that want to switch they just don't have anything to switch to, I think you will be surprized on how fast people change their habbits, but then again your a DOOMER with no hope or vision so I doubt you will see the change.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Vegas wrote:
yesplease wrote:
300 miles at 55mph should be doable with a large lead acid pack and the right donor vehicle.
No way. You are talking 1-2 ton batt. That is getting realy weird.
half ton of lead gets ya 100mi range, if you are running a good motor, series wound is going to be less. It is hard building with lead, I done it for a long time, frustrating. There is nothing wrong with a short range vehicle, when the other choice is walking.
I hate cars, so that figures into it too. The car 'culture' disintigrating does'nt seem that tragic. America will have to adapt, and go third world transportation. Be good for us, toughen up a little;)
What have you built with lead ? show us some picture of your lead EV's ????
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