I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6289 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
FreddyH wrote:
jasonraymondson wrote:
When you all look at social security, are you ever reminded of a pyramid scheme? I was thinking about that earlier and it makes me wonder how the government can prosecute individuals when they themselves run the largest one going.
Just a thought
After u do more homework, it will be found that the CBO determined in 2004 that a mere 1.6% increase in payroll taxes will extend the funded liability from 2045 to 2075.
Unfortunately, neither Party in Congress wants to be responsible for initiating the bad news increase...
With the time lapse, it is probable that 1.8% is now req'd.
Thats assuming they can tap the trust fund........which doesn't exist.
In the real world, social security payments will exceed social security taxes in 6-8 years. That means either SS taxes must be raised, or SS payments must be reduced.
And when the next Congress or the one after that raises the SS tax, they'll use the excuse that they are "extending funded liability to 2075" when what they are really doing is keeping the Pay-as-you-go social security pyramid scheme solvent for another few years.
Last edited by Plantagenet on Thu May 15, 2008 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4331 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Plantagenet wrote:
Thats assuming they can tap the trust fund........which doesn't exist.
In the real world, social security payments will exceed social security taxes in 6-8 years. That means either SS taxes must be raised, or SS payments must be reduced.
Or both.
Baby boomers are going to take the age 62 option in higher than expected numbers, so the shortfall will appear sooner than expected, I think. _________________
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 764 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
To me, this illustrates a major flaw in the US Constitution. There is no way to prevent politicians from looting the Trust Fund, unless it was prohibited by the Constitution. Not only does there need to be a strict *balanced budget* requirement (that means no deficit spending whatsoever, year in and year out), but there needs to be actual *funds* set aside for programs such as Social Security to pay promised benefits. You know, an actual, tangible savings account with real money in it, drawing real interest.
But it's all too late now, of course. Not only will we be soon forking over current income to pay benefits, we will also be dealing with the Incredible Shrinking Economy throughout...that means less and less money flowing in each year, even as expenses increase relentlessly through the teens, 20's and 30's. Not an ideal situation at all.
No wonder why I get so doomeristic about it all...hehe. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Does it strike anybody as absurd that the richest country in the history of the world seems to be succeeding in convincing itself that it can't afford a social security system anymore?
I sense this is all orchestrated by those who seek to increase the income disparity and make America into a some variation of a third world "have/have not" nation.
Study history and you will find that in the Great Depression, even many middle class elderly lived miserly lives, clinging onto their savings out of fear of living beyond them (due to low interest returns then as now) or just out of fear of economic collapse. In so doing, they exacerbated the economic malaise. The social security system provided at least a foundation for survival, and allows the elderly to plan their futures so much better and enjoy more of their golden years.
If the system is damaged, maybe it should be repaired, not discarded. I still think it odd that FICA contributions are referred to as taxes, painting the picture of government taking something away, instead of thinking of them as an investment in a government operated plan, which it should be.
Joined: Jul 04, 2007 Posts: 2234 Location: The U.S.S.A
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Denny wrote:
Does it strike anybody as absurd that the richest country in the history of the world seems to be succeeding in convincing itself that it can't afford a social security system anymore? ... If the system is damaged, maybe it should be repaired, not discarded. I still think it odd that FICA contributions are referred to as taxes, painting the picture of government taking something away, instead of thinking of them as an investment in a government operated plan, which it should be.
Yea, and there is your problem. The government claims that is what it is suppose to be, yet continues to treat SS like a secondary income tax to fund an ever growing military industrial complex and to pay for pet projects like "the bridge to nowhere".
The people need to rise up and take back this country. We should revolt, but we won't. We are lazy farking cowards. Yes, I am including myself in this since we know I am not doing anything but sitting on my ass typing about how we need to fight back.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 764 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Denny wrote:
If the system is damaged, maybe it should be repaired, not discarded. I still think it odd that FICA contributions are referred to as taxes, painting the picture of government taking something away, instead of thinking of them as an investment in a government operated plan, which it should be.
That's precisely the problem...FICA is considered a tax, as it goes to pay someone's else's benefits today, as opposed to actually being *invested* in a national savings plan to pay your benefits tomorrow.
As it is run today, Social Security is an income redistribution program, shifting wealth from the young to the old. Not that I have a problem with this concept, but what I *do* have a problem is that people of my age and younger are going to get totally screwed, as the coming depression will make it downright impossible to pay promised benefits, even if taxes are dramatically increased.
There are going to be a whole lot of elderly parents moving back in with their kids in the coming decades, that's for sure. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Social Security is only one of the social programs that are very likely to tank when the Babyboomers retire. I feel bad for them all. Any babyboomers who rely on that system are going to be deeply disappointed. The New Deal has failed, we are now just making more and more promises that cannot be sustained. I think Social Security will go insolvent before 2017. Sorry, I just don't believe the non-sense. Those bonds are not going to be worth much in a few years. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6289 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Denny wrote:
Does it strike anybody as absurd that the richest country in the history of the world seems to be succeeding in convincing itself that it can't afford a social security system anymore?
The problem isn't in affording a social security system. The problem is the current system is based on an accounting gimmick (the "trust fund") that the Congress used to divert hundreds of billions of dollars into the general fund over the last 30 years.
The Congress overtaxed the boomers for 30 years.
That money is spent and gone and it ain't coming back.
Boomers have every right to expect the feds to pay their social security now, but the only way that will happen is to jack up taxes on young workers, at a time there are only going to be 2-3 workers for every retiree.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4331 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Social Security is only one of the social programs that are very likely to tank when the Babyboomers retire. I feel bad for them all. Any babyboomers who rely on that system are going to be deeply disappointed. The New Deal has failed, we are now just making more and more promises that cannot be sustained. I think Social Security will go insolvent before 2017. Sorry, I just don't believe the non-sense. Those bonds are not going to be worth much in a few years.
The baby boomers are going to get all of their benefits. They have been raping the system their whole lives. That generation is about nothing other than taking, taking, taking. Take all of the accumulated energy from the past in the form of natural resource deposits, take all of the self-indulgence their parents would help them pursue, and take all hope of financial security from future generations by writing themselves checks that won't be cashed until they are no longer working.
All to satisfy their own sense of entitlement and insatiable appetites.
When you look at studies of generational trends, a group like the baby boomers shows up ever 200 years or so, and it usually takes about 150 years to repair the damage they do to their society. _________________
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 638 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Plantagenet wrote:
[Thats assuming they can tap the trust fund........which doesn't exist.
In the real world, social security payments will exceed social security taxes in 6-8 years. That means either SS taxes must be raised, or SS payments must be reduced.
And when the next Congress or the one after that raises the SS tax, they'll use the excuse that they are "extending funded liability to 2075" when what they are really doing is keeping the Pay-as-you-go social security pyramid scheme solvent for another few years.
Well, actually it does exist. It's just filled with treasury bonds which have to be redeemed someday. Like I said, they will either raise everyone's taxes to redeem those bonds or they will just print more money. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Denny wrote:
There are going to be a whole lot of elderly parents moving back in with their kids in the coming decades, that's for sure.
Not sure how well that is going to work out considering the children of most Boomers are still living with their parents and working in retail. Kind of like a snake eating its' tail aye.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6289 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
BigTex wrote:
The baby boomers are going to get all of their benefits. They have been raping the system their whole lives. That generation is about nothing other than taking, taking, taking.
You can't blame the baby boomers for the social security problem.
--The system was designed by their grandfathers.
--Their fathers (the greatest generation) came up with the phony "trust fund" idea.
--Far from "taking taking," the boomers have actually been dutifully paying extra social security taxes their whole lives based on the belief that they were paying for their parents retirement and "pre-paying" their own social security by putting excess money into the "trust fund."
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
Financialization of the economies of some of the developed nations, are also Ponzi like. Forget peak and focus on this sordid reality. It's nearly all smoke and mirrors, in the good old US of A.
Joined: Jul 04, 2007 Posts: 2234 Location: The U.S.S.A
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Social Security pyramid scheme?
threadbear wrote:
Financialization of the economies of some of the developed nations, are also Ponzi like. Forget peak and focus on this sordid reality. It's nearly all smoke and mirrors, in the good old US of A.
I wish we could just opt out. I could put that money to better use than the government.
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