Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
if there is no visible frulit in a professing Christians life we have scriptural basis for treating them as an unbeliever.
What does that "visible fruit" look like?
How do you treat them as an unbeliever? How is that different from how you would treat a (to you) believer? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
God gives his Grace freely to all who believe, we have a tough time accepting that because our entire way of earthly living is based on a works=reward way of life.
Thank you.
I have still another question, one that it seems so hard to get clarity on here in this thread - what of Christian behavior? Why is that so difficult to talk about? I'm not talking about works=reward, I'm talking about what a Christian is supposed to do because that is what God wants. Such as all the many comments about behavior made by Jesus, the Sermon on the Mount, for example. Why does this seem to be not something that is important to Evangelicals? Why are they so focused on the "reward" of God's grace, rather than focused on what Jesus taught his followers about how they are supposed to be?
Again, this is the difficult issue for me in my past life as a Christian. And continues to be troubling, in that I look around me to see many Christians, all of whom seem to behave the same as anyone else.
I really do not know Ludi - Believe it or not I am more preoccuppied with my own sanctification than someone else's. I will give an example that may help you. I have a Christian friend who wants to drink alcohol. I do not like alcohol and believe that no good will come from it, we do not need it to purify water like they did in those days. Even though it is a sin to me I believe he is not breaking any biblical mandates to avoid it so when he wanted to talk about it I would tell him what I personally believe, but he needed to develop his own convictions about it.
This same person then left his wife in California while they were there visiting their respective families becasue she was acting "rebelious to him" and he said she needed it to get back in line. I believe he clearly was acting unbiblical, I shared with him the verses that states that he needs to put his wifes needs above his and he refused to repent (or change his mind), I then decided that I was going to "break fellowship" with him becasue he is putting his own personal liberty above his wife's needs and it was stumbling my as a person.
This is an example of what my be a Biblical way of handling unrepentant sin in the Body of Christ. But the reality of things is we all have a tremendous amount of sin that still exists in our own hearts, so the sin we see is probably just a small fraction of what is really occurring in the hearts of Christians. To be a Christian means we need to act mercifully as our Father has been merciful to us.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Just to make sure that I understand, you seem to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of "unconditional election", i.e. who will be saved was predestined. In that sense you are a traditional Calvinist ?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4069 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AT, besides evangelicals, who do you think you will see in Heaven?
- Jews?
- Muslims?
- Catholics?
- Lutherans?
- Buddhists?
- Hindus?
- Tribesmen who followed local customs and never knew any different?
- Native Americans?
- Third trimester aborted fetuses?
- Second trimester aborted fetuses?
- First trimester aborted fetuses?
- Miscarried fetuses?
If you don't see them in Heaven, does that mean they will be in Hell?
Do you think there is any way to "opt out" of immortality, so that you go to neither Heaven nor Hell when you die? This would be for someone who had been presented with too many different faiths and interpretations and decided that the risk of Hell was too great and just wanted to opt out of the system altogether. _________________
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
OK, now I understand better. Do you also consider yourself an "evangelical" ?
And I'd like to repeat my question on what Christian denominations you view as heretical (besides Catholicism).
Btu
I don't know I am deeply disturbed at what seems to be occurring in the "evangelical" movement...Maybe 50 years ago I would say yes, but today I have to say no (kind of). Let's say I am a dissenter in the Evangelical movement. There is a great sermon series called, "The Lions Roar" by Alistar Begg you might want to listen to if you are so inclined, it is on the Book of Amos and is pretty much an accurate picture of how I see "Evangelicalism" today, it cost's $2 per download, but I think if you listened to that you would hear what I am talking about when I say I am a dissenter.
The only religion I am vaugely familiar with is Catholcism - I am a very amatuer Theologin and I suspect you are more educated than I on these subjects. The only reason I am familiar with Catholcisim is because it is rooted with Christianity and is so widespread.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I don't know I am deeply disturbed at what seems to be occurring in the "evangelical" movement...Maybe 50 years ago I would say yes, but today I have to say no (kind of). Let's say I am a dissenter in the Evangelical movement. There is a great sermon series called, "The Lions Roar" by Alistar Begg you might want to listen to if you are so inclined, it is on the Book of Amos and is pretty much an accurate picture of how I see "Evangelicalism" today, it cost's $2 per download, but I think if you listened to that you would hear what I am talking about when I say I am a dissenter.
Could you tell me briefly what disturbs you most about the developments in the evangelical movement ? I'd like to have the opinion of an insider.
And just to clarify, the only denomination you would confidently describe as heretical would be Catholicism ?
And if I understand correctly the issues you have with Catholicism are more or less the traditional criticisms made by the Protestant reformation ?
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
AT, besides evangelicals, who do you think you will see in Heaven?
- Jews?
- Muslims?
- Catholics?
- Lutherans?
- Buddhists?
- Hindus?
- Tribesmen who followed local customs and never knew any different?
- Native Americans?
- Third trimester aborted fetuses?
- Second trimester aborted fetuses?
- First trimester aborted fetuses?
- Miscarried fetuses?
If you don't see them in Heaven, does that mean they will be in Hell?
Do you think there is any way to "opt out" of immortality, so that you go to neither Heaven nor Hell when you die? This would be for someone who had been presented with too many different faiths and interpretations and decided that the risk of Hell was too great and just wanted to opt out of the system altogether.
I don't know Big Tex, those are questions I cannot answer, I am only preoccuppied with spreading the Gospel. In regards to children (born and unborn) God is a perfect and righteous judge, I cannot see how a dead Child can be sentenced to Hell.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I don't know Big Tex, those are questions I cannot answer, I am only preoccuppied with spreading the Gospel.
I was under the impression your belief is that only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour will enter Heaven. Was I mistaken? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Could you tell me briefly what disturbs you most about the developments in the evangelical movement ? I'd like to have the opinion of an insider.
And just to clarify, the only denomination you would confidently describe as heretical would be Catholicism ?
And if I understand correctly the issues you have with Catholicism are more or less the traditional criticisms made by the Protestant reformation ? Btu
I would have to say the Political Activism is my biggest pet peeve (I am not saying that is the most important, just one of mine pet peeves). The most frustrating thing about this is Politicians in this country have always done this in a blatant attempt to "Improve the world" for thier own interest of course. I cannot for the life of me see how killing people makes the world a better place. I can see going after a guy like Hitler, but the long list of wars that had basically no purpose at all are too much for me to handle.
Along with this activism comes the national pride that we are a "Christian Nation" (who is responsible for distributing more Pornography than any other nation on the planet) and yet the "Church" claims this "Christian Nation" garbage. I was listening to Jim Dobson whipping up the fervor saying we need to go blow up some more Muslims because prophesy demands that we kill Muslims to save the Nation State of Israel. Any fool should be able to see we are using Israel as a staging point for our interests, it started with the Brits - The Brits :
a: didn't want the Jews
and
b: put them their to maintain access to Iranian oil.
OK enough of my tirade on this.
The 2nd criticism (which is probably more important) is the straying from Orthodoxy and the rebellious nature of the Emerging Crowd, in which a lot of this consumerist worldliness I think you might be observing. This is a deep subject, but the Christian Church (collective whole) is wandering pretty aimlessly right now.
I would agree with you on the Catholic issue and that would be the Reformation differences.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4069 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
Hi BigTex,
What is your belief about the questions you asked AT ?
Btu
I assume you mean the ones immediately above and not the earlier ones about self-gratification.
I believe we are mortals, though we have strived to be immortal in every way one could imagine, from art, to literature, to architecture, to spirituality, to mythology, you name it.
I believe that life is a precious gift and I am deeply appreciative that I find myself here in this moment living. But one day I will die. And my consciousness will end when I die. After I am gone, some of the things I have done or created may continue to remind people of me, and that makes me happy, but the main point of living is simply to live. And when it comes time to die, you can do so without the burden of a lot of regrets, or the uneasy expectation of what's to come.
This view of the world was accepted as an obvious truth in the Old Testament and I do not think that it precludes belief in God or the divinity of your choice.
To me, the correct way to approach religion is to pick a faith that appeals to you, and don't worry about what other people believe or what they are doing in their faiths.
It is obvious to me that the question of "The First Cause" is not one that is close to being answered, and there is plenty in the world that I do not understand. However, the fact that we live in a mysterious world does not form the pretext for me to make the arrogant assumption that I am godlike myself--i.e, immortal and possessed of a soul that will live forever. It is, however, hard to look around at the beauty in the world and not sense some higher power, some architect of it all, and I am always on the lookout for a deeper understanding of this place I find myself in.
I will be honest and say that my feelings regarding this matter changed after I watched a few people die, including my Dad. For me, watching a human body die makes it painfully obvious that no spirits, energy, soul or anything else is leaving the body at the time of death. It is merely an animal drawing its last breaths, and when you understand it in that manner it makes the whole experience far less traumatic, because there a lot fewer unknowns.
Watching someone die is one of the most real experiences a person can ever have. It's an indescribable experience, and one that you walk away from feeling exhausted, but spiritually cleansed and extremely aware of everything around you--and very ALIVE.
You simply humble yourself to the truth of what you are observing and accept it. A person received the gift of life, lived their best, and passed away. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
As for post-death destinations in other cultures and religious traditions, I say whatever gives them the tools to cope with loss and provide wholeness to their worlds, go right ahead and believe it and practice it. _________________
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
I don't know Big Tex, those are questions I cannot answer, I am only preoccuppied with spreading the Gospel.
I was under the impression your belief is that only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour will enter Heaven. Was I mistaken?
Ludi, That is what the Bible teaches. I, However, do not make that judgement call. You say you do not accept Christ ? The Bible says you are condemmed for unbelief, I do not say that, nor do I say who goes and who does not go. I don't know if a person believes or not, I am unable to read a persons heart.
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