ASAP Input sought re: Developing A Semi-Communal Small Farm

Lumpy

As I have posted elsewhere, we are working with two grown sons, (one of whom is married and has kids 4 & 2) on establishing our small farm as a semi-communal entity, and working toward self-sustaining self-sufficiency and independence.

We are talking about 7 strong personalities, joining forces toward common goals, and not only surviving the effort, but actually mutually benefitting from multiple generations on the same land, with multiple kinds of talents and experiences.

We (husband and I) have greater wisdom in most areas than they do, because they are younger and have not lived long enough to have made as many mistakes as we have! (ha ha) But they have expertise in areas that we don't (and vice versa, of course) -- and they see the collapse coming, too. So all the way around, it seems like the best deal across the board.

Plus we've already been working on this place for almost 3 years -- orchard in, chicken coop built, etc. They have nothing in terms of real estate or money, but they are able to work off the farm to make money (as long as their skills are in demand -- and the younger one is a mechanic, so he should be employed for at least barter pretty permanently), and on the farm to move things forward faster.

We (husband and I) have begun writing a charter. We have asked for their input (they live about 3 hours away) but they don't seem to "get it", and the need for it to proactively address problem areas, so that we can minimize misunderstandings, resentments, etc, going in.

Would appreciate any thoughts or links to info or books that address this type of venture.

We are looking at each unit (defined as being a husband & wife together, or single person over age 18 ) as paying a certain portion of the basic costs (mortgage, utilities, etc) - yet to be determined.

In addition, we are thinking that each unit will contribute a certain % of income toward communal stores of food, purchases (e.g. more grape vines) that increase the value of the farm and its self-sufficiency, etc.

The reason we are calling this "semi-communal" is that the rest of the percentage of income will be kept for personal use by each unit (husband/wife; single person over 18 ). (e.g. If someone wants to smoke cigarettes or go to the movies, these costs come from their personal use money.)

This is supposed to launch quite soon. Really could use some help, thoughts, input, links, books ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks

Lumpy
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"Run when you can, walk when you have to, crawl if you must; just never give up."

-- Dean Karnazes, runner and author of Ultramarathon Man

Pops

I'm gonna say something I rarely do:

Get an attorney and write a contract and certainly don't do anything ASAP!

Things happen between spouses, parents and kids and such - especially when property and assets are involved.

The best thing about a contract is it lays out each persons' responsibility.

I'm gonna go look for Seahorse right now...
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Make a plan and work it:

Ludi

I can't strongly enough recommend the book "Creating a Life Together" by Diana Leafe Christian. It's about how to build an intentional community and how to avoid the pitfalls of failure.

Very very clear communication is one of the absolute necessities of success, including putting everything in writing. Pops advice about an attorney is spot on.

Don't rush into this, it is too important.
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"...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy

Shannymara

I agree with both Ludi and Pops. After spending a little time at Earthaven, reading the book Ludi recommended, watching the efforts of some friends, and doing a lot of thinking and other reading, I concluded that starting a formal intentional community is too complicated and failure prone for my taste. It's like marriage, only with however many partners are involved. Marriage with one person is plenty of work for me, as much as I love the idea of intentional community.

Your situation is a little different since it's all family members, but in a way that makes it even more difficult since there are already well established emotional issues between all of you. But at least you have those family bonds on your side. On the other hand, if the effort fails and breaks some of those bonds, you've lost even more than if you were doing this with non-relatives.

Look at Earthaven's documents, and those of other successful (meaning existing for a long time) communities. And definitely get legal agreements drawn up.

Look into land trusts.

Good luck!
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin

pstarr

Listen to Pops and Ludi. Both good pieces of advice.

I would be wary of entering into a long term relationship (especially with grown children) not interested in a legal charter. The charter is a very necessary tool to end useless discussion and to depersonalize differences and arguments.

I developed and live in a cohousing community in California and the state required us to develop a CC&R--Covenants, Codes, and Restrictions. We have never fallen back on it but it acts as a unspoken foundation that helps us resolve issues.

More importantly we developed a whole system of consensus-based decision making that has served us well. It is difficult to live with, but absolutely necessary. The downside of the consensus system (as opposed to Roberts Rules of Order) is that is can become a bogged down by passive, unimaginative individuals. Or it can be a very useful break and damper to unwise hasty decision making.

Do not rush into this!
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director

ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap wav

Lumpy

Thanks to you all. Some questions regarding your responses.

Shanny - Where will I be able to read about Earthaven? I am ignornant of this place.

Ludi - Thanks for the advice regarding the book. By the way, as you can see, even though this part of our family "gets it" regarding peak oil, etc (compared to your family who has been ignoring your efforts), it's still hard to bring family together when combined as an organized entity that is also non-family. Honestly, this is hard work, and I hope we make it.

Pops, Pstarr, and all -
The charter outlines purpose, etc, and is is sort of like the constitution, and requires signature by all. It is the contractual agreement amongst all.

Then we have the code (which are the "laws" -- e.g. no drugs), and then we have the regulations (which are how the codes are to be implemented).

It's all well written, but we (husband and I) have done the writing. They are willing to sign, but have not given enough input yet to have real ownership.

We haven't rushed into this -- this has been in the works for months. But we had agreed to June, and now June is nearly upon us, and they still haven't done what they need to do in terms of sober consideration and input, in our opinions.

We were to have a meeting tomorrow - we were going to drive 3 hours each way, plus meet with them for 4 hours there. They were to have seen to it that the children would be cared for elsewhere, or that we would have a meeting room at the library reserved, and there would be a sitter for the kids at home.

They advised us YESTERDAY that they hadn't found a sitter. This makes us wary, suddenly. It was all coming together in terms of their responses on the phone and by e-mail -- but they didn't take this major meeting seriously enough to start looking for child care for the 4 hours tomorrow until yesterday.

So we said "no way we are coming up". We put the meeting off until next Friday. In all fairness, younger of the two grown sons is not at fault here. He is going to drive down on Saturday with oldest nephew (our 4 yr old grandson). That is a good thing, because he and husband can spend time together, walking and working the land, and talking about plans. Grandson was crushed to learn that we were not coming to take him to the farm tomorrow, so he is glad that his uncle is bringing him down on Saturday.

But what does all this tell us about the reality of the situation, and the committment level/understanding, etc? It's scary.

They have given notice on their rental house, and are planning to move in June -- to the farm. We HAVE to get this thing worked out, or forget it all.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for listening. Wish us well. Pray for us, if you are a praying person, please.

Will keep you posted.

Lumpy
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"Run when you can, walk when you have to, crawl if you must; just never give up."

-- Dean Karnazes, runner and author of Ultramarathon Man

Pops

Lumpy, my old partner said:

"if it's gotta be yes or no right now; the answer is;

'hell no.'."
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Make a plan and work it:

Shannymara

http://earthaven.org/

It's a permaculture based IC/ecovillage that's been around for a while. I love it, I considered moving there. The author of the book Ludi recommended lives there, I believe. They do all their decision making by the formal consensus process pstarr mentioned.

It's a labor of love. There's a LOT of labor involved. You have to be extremely committed to make it work. By "you" I mean every person involved.

However, being the mom of a 4 year old, I can sympathize with having trouble juggling things and finding a sitter for a couple with a 2 year old and 4 year old.

I guess you have some pretty difficult decisions to make about whether to take them on board if they aren't committed or don't understand.

Again, good luck. <- not sarcastic!!!

Pops, my father in law says "cheap, fast, and good - you can only have two". Seems to always work out that way!
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin

seahorse · Expert Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2021 Location: Arkansas

Lumpy,

Its my understanding that you and your husband own the land and therefore are paying the mortgage? Is this right? If so, I would not enter any type of written agreement with your kids for this reason - you run the risk of creating some type of partnership giving them a legal interest in the farm and what it produces without also being signed and responsible for the note and mortgage! This would not be wise.

As long as its your farm, you make the rules, your way or the highway. In fact, any "relationship" would probably work better that way with the many personalities involved, you need to know who is the ultimate decision maker (sometimes that's hard enough between spouses). You would want to make sure you have your wills in place to take care of your kids and grandkids when you pass, so that the farm will pass the way you want it to pass.

Now, if your kids are willing to sign on the dotted line and be responsible to the bank for the mortgage, then I agree with Pops you want to get a formal document drafted. The most common would be a Limited Liability Company (LLC), but each state's laws vary somewhat and you would want to talk to an attorney about it